Ben Crenshaw - Part 3 (The Ryder Cup and the Majors)

Intro Music 0:07

Straight down the middle. It went straight down the middle. Then it's not a good thing.

Mike Gonzalez 0:14

Let me just take you back briefly. Uh uh coming up 18, your second victory in 1995. You're sitting the fairway pretty good as I recall, probably short iron in your hand. Just take us through your mindset with a two-stroke lead.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Wow, I I had somehow kept my concentration uh and tried not to think about this particular week. And uh when I when I birdied 16 and 17, they gave me a little cushion over Davis Love. And the putt I made at 17 was out of this world. God, it was so nice to see that. And then I got off a good tee shot at 18, and I started walking downhill with my great friend Carl Jackson, my caddy, who's I mean, he's been with me since 1976 there. And he is one great friend and a great caddy. He made me learn that golf course. He is so great. So I'm walking with him, and I'm walking down the hill, and it hit me. And I I said, I can't believe this is happening this week. This week. And uh I broke my concentration, started breaking, and I and I had an eight-iron second, uh, and I did not hit it well, came off the ball, went to the right, and uh, and uh chipped up and got it down, and that last putt I got down, and I just completely, completely broke down then. Uh every part of emotion came out of me, and uh, you know, that's when that's when Big Carl came over to me and put his arms around me, and I'll never forget it. He said, Are you okay, buddy? And I said, No, I'm not. I couldn't speak, I was just crying. And uh it was a hell of a moment.

Mike Gonzalez 2:13

Well, what you know, for for people that have not been there, what it takes to hold together for 72 holes like that during a very, very emotional week for you, and then knowing that it's done, it's over, you've achieved your goal, and you achieved it that week, uh, it's like uh the energy just probably left your body for a few seconds.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Well, I did. I was so thankful about so many things. My wife and uh my dad and Carl, Carl Jackson. I I can't say enough about Carl. Uh Carl was one of the long list of caddies there at Augusta who you won't believe this. He learned, he learned under a guy over there named Pappy Stokes. And Pappy Stokes was one of the original laborers when the golf course was built. So Pappy Stokes knew everything about the golf course, and he he caddied in many of the tournaments. He caddied for Arnold Palmer and caddied for a lot of people and won the tournament many times. But Carl learned a lot of everything he knew from Pappy Stokes, and uh they called him the Godfather uh because he knew he was there the longest and he knew everything about it. But you know, all the all the times where Carl and I won and we had heartbreak too, but well, I was happy for him.

Mike Gonzalez 3:45

He must have had a keen eye relative to looking at your golf swing because he picked up on a couple things that helped you that week. He sure did.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Uh that week that I got there, uh I'd missed the cut in New Orleans. Uh, I got to the Augusta National earlier on Saturday night and went out and practiced on Sunday, and then that Sunday night is when I received a uh received a call from Tom Kite saying that Harvey'd passed away. And of course, this is this is before the week started. So in the practice session, so Carl noted that I was swinging too fast, and he said, I want you to put the ball a little bit further back in your stance, and I want you to make a tighter turn. And wow, it was just a simple, simple tip and simple, simple observation. I started hitting the ball solid, and uh my confidence grew, and uh we you know made this plan to go back to Austin, Barry Harvey, and I was anxious to get back to the tournament because I was enthused about the way I hit the ball in practice. So came back and everything was fine. I went out in the first day, played very well, that thing was working. Second day, same thing. Third day, some wonderful things happened, hit kept hitting the ball well. And so my mind was eased and calmed. And but it was I at the end, after it was over, I said, you know, it's unbelievable. It's just like it was like Harvey crawled inside of Carl's body. But things like that happened during the week. Uh I can't explain it.

Mike Gonzalez 5:39

Even having Davis Love being in the picture that week, he needed to win his way into the tournament the prior week, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Well, he did. And apparently is what I is what we learned was that when Harvey knew that Davis Love had qualified for the tournament after winning New Orleans, he clapped his hands, and that was the last breath he took. And that was ironic because Davis Love's father was a great student of Harvey, and he went to the University of Texas here. Uh, so there's a tie-in there. Sort of surreal.

Mike Gonzalez 6:14

Surreal, spiritual, magical, uh, all rolled into one. I guess as a Spaniard, my favorite, one of my favorite recollections is the fact that you had Spaniards uh slip on your green jacket both times.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Two great Spaniards. I'll tell you what, that first one, Sevi Besteros, uh probably one of the most exciting players I've I ever played with or watched. Wow, he was he was brilliant. He was brilliant in the way that he the way that he carried himself, the way that he strode the fairways and the way he could play. God, he could hit the ball, and what a short game. What a marvelous short game, and a fierce, fierce competitor. Um and in Jose Maria Olatabo's case, uh, a beautiful player is one of the best chippers of the ball, I think I've ever seen. He is just it just brushes the ball off the ground. But man, he what a player. Two great guys. You're right, two span, two great Spaniards.

Mike Gonzalez 7:24

So tell us about uh some of your favorite recollections moving on to the U.S. Open.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

One year at Medina, 1975, uh where Lou Graham won uh and beat John Mahaffey in a playoff. Uh but I had a sort of a spectacular collapse on a 71st hole. I double bogeyed that long part three, hit it in the water. That snuffed out my chances, but uh that was the closest I got to the U.S. Open. Uh I had a few good tournaments there, but wow, what a a stern test the U.S. Open was. Uh yeah, I love that old quote that uh he said, you don't win the U.S. Open, the U.S. Open wins you. Uh I forgot who made that comparison, but uh uh I thought it was probably the hardest tournament to win, probably in my uh estimation, you know, followed by the British Open and then PGA. Uh but wow, you have to have a lot of patience in the U.S. Open.

Mike Gonzalez 8:37

Well, you had to really enjoy, as a historian of the game, even at a young age, to participate in 21 Open Championships, 18 cuts made. You had some very good finishes, uh, five top fives, six top tens, eleven top twenty-fives. Uh you were right there a few times. Uh, what are some of your favorite memories from the open championship?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Well, uh yeah, my my first one, I was 18 years old that I went and played in Hazeltine National in Minneapolis. And um You mean the cow pasture? I don't Dave Hill. And Dave Hill, lo and behold, said all those things about the, you know, he need all this place needs is 80 acres of corn and cows. Lo and behold, he finishes second that week to Tony Jacqueline. And I'll never forget this. Uh, after that week, believe me, the and the gallery was on him the whole week after making those comments. Dave, believe me, he is one of he was he was so feisty. It didn't bother him. It made him play better. And uh, you know, Tony Jacklin won, Dave Hill finishes second, and uh John Mahaffey and I tied for low amateurs, so we went to the prize giving. And uh USGA president said, uh, all right, we have the runner-up in this tournament, it's Dave Hill. So Dave Hill got up and everybody started booing him just like you can, just like a baseball game. And Dave Hill gets in front of everybody and yells into the microphone. He said, Look, he said, if I couldn't moo or boo any worse than that, he said, I'd send you all back to the slaughterhouse. He said that to 10,000 people out there. Dave was unbelievable. But Tony Jacquel had a great week that week. Uh he he played magical, and that was when, you know, the following year he won the open championship twice. Uh in the ensuing years, he was a remarkable golfer, but man.

Mike Gonzalez 10:50

You were low amateur in your first U.S. Open there at Hazel Teen Orchard. Low low amateur. So let's talk about uh 1978 old course St. Andrews Open Championship. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Uh I had played St. Andrews one other time before 1978. And I mean, I I that's right up my alley. I love that. I love the history, and I've tried to you try to do your best learning that golf course, but it was another great old line somebody said, There's something about that very course that outwits you. And you play it in a tournament, as Bruce knows, and you there's all sorts of ways that it can play. You discover new ways to play it every day you play. Uh and uh, you know, I played well that week and I got into a four-way tie for second place. Uh at the end, Jack Nicholas beat us all. And poor Simon Owen, I'll never forget him. Simon Owen had the lead all the way through the 16th hole in the final round. And I think he met a bogey or double bogey, and Jack patiently beat him, but Simon Owen played great that week. But Aseo Aoki, I had a very interesting thing. I played with Iseo Aoki four days during that tournament. Well, just the way that we were paired. I was paired with him the first two days, and then the way we scored. I played with Aoki four days. And Tom Kite, uh, and then Simon Owen, uh, Ooki and myself. I so we got close to Jack, but Jack killed us off at the end, as he usually did.

Mike Gonzalez 12:44

I didn't recall you playing all four uh rounds with Aoki, but uh you were tied for the 36-hole lead with he and Sevi.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah, uh I, you know, to watch uh So I say Aoki play in the finest pair of hands you could ever see. He could do little things to the ball that you couldn't believe. His hands were fabulous, great short game and a wonderful player.

Mike Gonzalez 13:11

And where did he learn that uh setup with his putter?

SPEAKER_00 13:14

You know, I I heard that he learned it on the Korai Greens in Japan, which are very bristly and coarse, and he had that that chop stroke, and that was the way you putted on Korai Greens, as they call.

Mike Gonzalez 13:28

Yeah, that was the only way to do a little pop stroke to get it rolling. That's right. How about 1979? That was uh Sevy's win at Litham. You were second. Uh that's the year of Sevy's famous car park shot. Uh, does that course have enough bunkers for you?

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Wow, there's bunkers everywhere there. Uh Royal Lithum is a is a wonderful course. There's another, that's where Tony Jacqueline won his open championship. Uh that it was pretty chilly that week, I remember. And I played well. Uh but once again, I have to tell you, I double bogeyed the 71st hole, and that killed me off. Uh and Sevy, Sevi played beautiful that week. He I remember you know everybody talked about how he made the birdie from the parking lot on the 16th hole. Well, he played a lot of other holes well, too, and deserved it. Uh uh, but no, that's I came close there a few times, but uh yeah, fond memories of Royal Lithum.

Mike Gonzalez 14:39

What are some of your other favor uh favorite open venue golf courses? Because there are plenty.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Muirfield. Uh Muirfield uh is uh I'd say with all the American uh professionals and professionals around the world, when they play an open championship at Muirfield, it could be one of their favorites. And I think it's ironic because it's so unlike the old course. Uh there's there's not so much hidden in at Muirfield, it's just a really well put together golf course. Uh uh Bruce, I'm sure that you did you play in 1966 when Jack won?

Bruce Devlin 15:27

I did.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

And uh they say that was brutal. Uh the the the oak the the rough was waist high.

Bruce Devlin 15:36

Yeah, it was it was miserable.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

God, I remember seeing footage of that. Jack, uh Jack, I don't think he played a wood off the T the whole week. I may be wrong about that.

Bruce Devlin 15:52

Uh I I don't um I think you're right. I don't think he hit any drivers at all. He might have hit a three-wood a couple of times, but it was if you if you look, it was a shot penalty. Mr. Fairway, that's a shot penalty. That's that's exactly what it was.

Mike Gonzalez 16:09

Wow. Was it fairly windy that week too, Bruce?

Bruce Devlin 16:12

Yeah, a little bit. Uh you know, you're always gonna get wind there, so uh I think I think you come to expect it.

Mike Gonzalez 16:20

Would you agree that that near field uh of all the current open road, of course, is probably as fair and straightforward, there being not as many quirky bounces that let's say you'd get at Royal St. George's or other venues?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Well, as I say, it's probably the most predictable. Uh yeah, you don't get uh the quirks that you do in other uh open venues. Uh is the most predictable, is maybe not a tough one, but it's a tough golf course. In the wind, I mean the fairway bunkers, always always remember Muirfield's fairway bunkers. If you get in them, you can you're not going anywhere out of them. Uh they're very tough, very strategically located. Uh great collection of holes, though. Wow. Beautifully done.

Mike Gonzalez 17:20

If you were running the RNA for a day, where might you want to take the open championship one year that's never uh hosted it before?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Oh wow, what an interesting question. Uh well, you know, the Port Rush, they they've had it, they had it in 1951. I think they had it there the first time where Max Faulkner won. Uh and then they had it later, but it very seldom used. I I don't know. I'm trying to think. They've got it right with the open with the rota they have.

Bruce Devlin 18:00

Port Rush should be a good example, I think, Ben. That's a that's a that's a very interesting golf course, Port Rush, I think. You know, you know, Port Rush. Yeah, very, very interesting golf course. Some some spectacular holes on it.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

And a learning ground for Rory McElroy, uh, Darren Clark, uh Graham McDowell. You see me grow up at Port Rush, man. You better learn to play there. You have to learn to play. Yeah. And that's why they're so good, those players.

Mike Gonzalez 18:35

I'll ask you about a couple of venues that uh uh see if you might want to put an open there, uh irrespective of its ability to host all the infrastructure that you need in the modern open championship now. But uh I'll mention a couple, Royal County Down or Royal Dorneck.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yeah, uh County Down, County Down, uh I I have not personally played it, but a lot of people say that's one of their favorite courses on the face of the earth because of its atmosphere. Uh and like you say, with tournament setups and this and that, there may be a reason why they haven't had it. Uh, but Royal Dornock, Royal Dornock on a good day is about as good as it gets. That is a magical place, way up north. Um I have a really good friend who caddied for me forever over in Britain, and he's from Glasgow. And they used to have a tournament at the place called the Northern Open that they played at Nairn, and they had it in January of all things. And I said, what the heck was that like, Bobby? He said, well, if you if you hit the ball forward, you gained a stroke on the field. God.

Mike Gonzalez 20:00

But Dornik is magical. Yeah, it's a pretty special place. Um, let's talk a little bit about Ryder Cup. Uh, you played on four teams. You uh were on the winner winning team in '81 and '83, uh, and then two other uh one you mentioned, I think the 87 one you mentioned at Muirfield, and then also in '95. Uh, what are some of your favorite memories competing in the Ryder Cup?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Wow, I it's the that's the toughest golf that I ever played. You feel like you're playing in a straitjacket with your partner, so much on the line, you feel like you don't I always said the hardest thing for any rider cup participant is to play their own game. Uh, because there's so much to think about, so much going on, so much you're playing for. Um very, very difficult uh pressure is is way, way, way up there. And uh, you know, some people uh played really well in it, and some people did not play well in it, and it's a completely different nature uh of competition. Very keen, but very meaningful. The President's Cup is is wonderful, uh, and it's it's very, very meaningful too, but it's not it's just not quite the Ryder Cup, but uh uh the rivalry something, it makes it what it is. And uh wow. Uh uh we had many defeats. I've had many defeats as a player in it. What a competition.

Mike Gonzalez 21:51

And you you competed as a player during a stretch where the Europeans were beginning to really emerge as a competitive force, weren't they?

SPEAKER_00 21:59

Yeah, they had some Well, they had some outstanding players in in Sevy and Nick Faldo, Ian Wusnum, you know, people like that. They were they were just good. And uh you knew you had to play your best to to play with them. And uh, you know, you gotta credit them because uh they played some of their best golf in this country. So the hat was off to them. They they played well at many occasions.

Mike Gonzalez 22:26

Of course, uh a real feather in your cap and a real honor for you, as you mentioned, uh being able to captain the 1999 team at the country club at Brookline, uh heretofore known as the Battle of Brookline. And uh uh the team overcame a 10-6 deficit on the final day in singles. Uh, of course, you had your famous quote, what which must have been what the night before, I guess, right? About how you felt about the coming day.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

I I did. I um number of things. Uh our our players were learning the course better, they felt better about their games. They thought that the margin or the deficit was uh more than it should be. Uh uh playing in Boston is very patriotic. I you know it's funny. I it was the most pressure I ever had, of course, being a captain. You feel responsible for everything, but you know what? Every tournament that had ever been played at the country club, the Americans always came out on top. That always went back to the U.S. amateurs and went back to Francis when we met year, and then subsequently U.S. amateurs always an American won. It's amazing. And so I said, well, this track record. And I did I did believe that that place was going to take care of us. Uh and yeah, we had a four-point deficit. Uh we had the darndest team meeting that night, Saturday night. And it's a Bruce has been part of these teams, and it's a it's a time where you really bond as players and professionals, and your wives are with you, and you're a you're a you're a core group. And it was one of the darnest nights. Uh we really had was heart-to-heart talks, and you know, lo and behold, I I concocted a plan months before. Uh, and Tom Kite was was my predecessor, uh, the captain in Spain. And George Bush, uh, big George Bush, 41, was in Spain and went into their team room on Saturday night before the singles and gave him a pep talk. And it almost they almost pulled it off there from a big despite deficit. But that particular summer in '99, uh my friend, the governor, George Bush, his son, had made a decision to run for president. And uh we were friends, and I said, you know something? I said, Governor, we may be in a tight spot in Boston. Uh, if you're in the area, I'd love for you to come over to the team room. Lo and behold, he had a fundraiser in Boston. So, and I told him months before, I said, you know what? I said, I'd like for you to read Colonel Travis's letter from the Alamo that night. And he said, I'll do it. So here he came. We're four points down. We've had this unbelievable meeting, and here he comes. Comes into the room, reads that letter, which is damned inspiring. And boy, it was it lit a fire. And our guys, the next day, I've never seen a team go out and play like that. And darned if they didn't flip the matches, and it was just wild. The whole scene was wild. I I I I things just kept happening like that. It was surreal. That was surreal week, too, believe me.

Mike Gonzalez 26:28

It was. It had some parallels to your your your master's win in 95 in terms of how everything just sort of came together that week for you.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Well, I've uh I can say I've had some wonderful things happen, and I've had some you know, any any golfer has to learn from uh pitfalls and mistakes, and uh it's it's the only way you can learn. Uh Bobby Jones said that he never learned anything from winning. He learned from his defeats. Um but uh golf's a fickle game, but it's mysterious, and it's held our attention for this long, and uh it'll continue. You know, what's amazing right now, and I'm sure Bruce, you talked to everybody in the golf industry, it is so healthy right now. People are playing, clubs are full.

Bruce Devlin 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Uh the golf equipment, people are doing it, and it's it's amazing. It's obviously one of the few things that people could do for recreation during this period. Uh, and I think people have really rejoiced by that, and it's made it stronger.

Bruce Devlin 27:45

So wow. So, Ben, you know, we've talked a lot about all your passions and all your victories around the world. I know a lot of people would love to sort of listen to a little bit about where you are in your architectural business with Bill Corps. I know you've got current projects that are underway, and I'm I'm sure the folks would like to uh know where they are and and uh what what's in store for you and Bill.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Yeah, Bruce, uh we are we have currently have five projects, which is usually more than we can handle. Fortunately, they'll be spaced out enough to where we can get to them all. But we've I'm going this next Monday to St. Lucia out in the Caribbean, where we have a course there. We're about halfway done uh on a course there. Beautiful site, right on the water. We are building a course in Alabama, uh almost to the Georgia line from Birmingham, almost east to Auburn. Uh beautiful piece of property there on a big lake, uh Lake Martin. Uh we have we have one in Florida, a second course for MacArthur Club, where our old old buddy Nick Price is a member, and they just want a second golf course there. Uh, we've got one in Northern California on the edge of the wine country uh for four or five San Francisco golf club members. They just want to put together a little golf club. Uh so uh we we we just saw a piece of property just outside of Denver uh that rally really uh enthused us quite a bit. So I mean we counter blessings. We're you know, golf architecture has been my second life. I know it's been yours, and you've done it well. Uh I think of Crown Colony, and I think of I still have not seen secession yet, which is terrible. Me, everybody loves that place.

Bruce Devlin 30:04

You got an open invitation, you know that.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

I really need to see secession, I really do. But you know, it's it gets in your blood. You know, you had a wonderful partner in Bob Von Hage, uh, and and uh you we followed your lead. I I know that it's so much fun trying to do what you think is best for a piece of property and you want to honor it the best way you can and make it the best you can be. I mean, it's it's art on a big, big easel. It's it's sort of mind-boggling, and you really enjoy the time uh spent with the people who who are your workers. Uh we've got workers that have been with Bill since before that I'm formed a partnership with him. So they're like your right arm. Uh it's so much fun.

Mike Gonzalez 31:10

I won't put you on the spot, Ben, and ask you to pick a favorite, but I'll tell you what mine is. Uh Sand Hills uh is an awful special place, and I'll just give you two of my favorite memories. Has nothing to do with playing golf. One is every night we're there, we finish dinner, we get in a cart, drive that mile or so out to the first T at about 10 o'clock at night, and we just look at the stars.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Yeah. Well, I mean, there's so many things there, uh other than the golf course, there you're in middle America in a place where you never thought you'd see, and you don't know much about it. So something mysterious about the sand hills in Nebraska. Uh vast, endlessly rolling, encased in sand. But so true, you know, there's no diffused light there, so those stars really are right at you. You can see the constellation there. But the people are just just wonderful. They're hardworking, they're Americans, uh uh, tough way of life, cattle grazing. Uh, but to take golf to a place like that, which uh it kind of reminds me of the movement and the sand reminds me of the old country. Uh and it's we were just happy that people wanted to go out and see it because it is remote. Uh but once you're there, it's something different. We're very proud of it. Very proud of it.

Mike Gonzalez 32:53

Yeah, it's a beautiful place. Of course, uh Golf Dye just came out with their ratings again yesterday, and Core Crenshaw courses were uh certainly featured in not just the top 100, but also the second 100. And uh uh just to recount some of the great courses: Cabot Cliffs, Friars Head, Shankin Bay in China, Barnbugle Loss Forum in Australia, Old Sandwich, Bandon Trail, Sand Valley, Streamstone Red, Colorado Golf Club. We've got Chichesy Creek here local. But what uh people have to be reminded of is uh uh not just looking at the original work from Core Crunchyaugh, but uh you've put your hands on some other fine golf courses and done good work, uh including the host of this weekend's Walker Cup down at Seminole.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Wow, I mean that's we've had that was pretty daunting, as Pinehurst is too. Yeah, the two of them. Uh when you you want to approach either one of them with kid gloves, obviously, because you think the world of them anyway, and you just go, I mean, the very last thing you want to do is to do anything overboard. You just I think Bruce and I realize when you see courses through the decades, they just lose their fairway lines, they lose their bunker lines, and the outlines of greens, things like that. That, you know, our old friend Dave Marr had a great line about golf courses, and he said, golf courses are a living thing. And he means by, you know, they breathe year after year after year. Little infinitesimal things change. And uh you want to put them back as best you know how, and you try to retrieve archival material to do that, study old photographs, talk to people, uh, and and you want to preserve as much as what you can. Uh, but it's a great honor to have been asked to work on those courses. So uh, you know what's funny? In Pinehurst's case, so many years had gone by, and even the 1999 U.S. Open when Payne Stewart won uh in a great fashion, the golf course was different. And what I mean by that is that Pinehurst had grown wall-to-wall green grass, meaning out of the fairways and into the sandy rough, it was all sort of cultivated grass and went all the way to the border of the property. And I thought, you know, it never was like this. And wow, when you go back and look at what was there, and and and so we we went about taking out a lot of the grass that had been planted out in the rough. So then it sort of reverted itself back to sandy, a sandy nature. So that was the main thing we did, and then to establish the fairway lines again, which had somehow become bowling alley straight, and pine earths never was that way. So that's what we did there. Uh and then Seminole to a point had gotten a little bit like that on the lines, but we introduced uh a little more sand out in the rust because that's its nature. Uh, and then and they uh we redid some bunkers which had had uh let's say just miss misshapen a little bit over the years. So we did the fairway bunkers one year and then we did the greenside bunkers the next year. And there's a lot of bunkers, yeah. But uh uh it's a great test of golf, very different for Florida. Has some elevation change in it, which is unusual. Uh I'm really gonna tune in on the Walker Cup to watch them, watch the young players play it. And if it's if there's some breeze, it's it's it's there's a test. It's a great test. So uh and a great club. Uh we were so honored to have been asked to do that.

Mike Gonzalez 37:17

So a great body of work that uh you and Bill have been able to put together. It's got to be a great feeling knowing that in a hundred years people are gonna be playing these core crenshaw courses, and that could become as ever important a part of your legacy as your playing career.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Well, that that's nice of you to say. I we just hope people enjoy them. And uh there's hopefully people will see a bit of tradition in them. Um there'll be interesting tests of golf, you know. Who was that long time ago said uh uh interest supersedes length every time. I thought that was an interesting quote and something to think about these days because length is so much on people's minds and it should be, and that's it's enamoring. Uh but it's not the only thing. Uh I think Bruce and I can tell you that some of the most interesting holes that we've ever played, man, you've got to have precision. Like that 11th hole at Marion, which is great, uh probably 390 yards downhill. But uh to put a ball in play in the open conditions and then put a ball on that green, that's one of the most beautiful little second shot uh holes that I've ever seen. Uh, very tightly bunkered with a the babbling brook on the right and in behind. It's just that's an exciting shot. Uh and uh there's so many holes like that uh that we've played that you want people to experience that too.

Mike Gonzalez 39:11

Ben, just to finish up with a couple of quick questions, then I'm gonna ask you and Bruce to opine on something that was recently introduced by the PGA. But uh first of the questions, uh let's let's uh let's give you one career mulligan. Where would you take it?

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Uh I'd take it on the 18th fairway at Augusta, uh, the year that Larry Mise won 1987. I was wet the whole day. It was wet. I had to, I could have parred the last hole I could have tied. And my hand slipped with a five-iron to hit it in the left bunker and bogeyed. But I just I just Carl and I were soaked. We didn't have any way to to get drier, and it was just I slipped.

Mike Gonzalez 40:06

Let me put you back to being 20 years old, but you're 20 years old and you know what you know now. What would you do differently?

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Oh wow, I would I would uh I you know what I'd say this that I think a lot of young players start out the tour with their own ability, they play well, they start having a little difficulty and then they experiment experiment wildly in some cases. Some people just lose their game entirely. Uh if you stick with what how you were built and and how you think you you tick uh and no and and and go off on complete wild experimentations, you'd be much better off. Uh everyone tries to shortcut the game, everybody tries to get better quickly, but there's a danger in that. And I think some of the most effective players that I've ever seen have their own individualism stamped in their game and their persona, and that's how they play their best. Uh uh at least that's the way I feel.

Mike Gonzalez 41:28

Gotcha. Yes. Bruce, uh uh, you and I have talked about this, and we'll ask Ben about it. The the PGA recently announced this new$40 million pool that uh uh their intent would be to recognize with that money uh the 10 players that rank highest in what they call their player impact program. It seems to have nothing to do with what happens on the golf course and all to do with their sort of persona that they create through social media. My only observation would be that that given the technical prowess uh of the two of you, I would think you'd be shoe-ins to finish top ten if you guys were still playing.

Bruce Devlin 42:12

I'm not so sure about that, Ben. How about you?

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Me too, Bruce. I I don't need I don't even know what to think. I don't even know where to go with that because I just saw it came up, and I'm going, what the heck is this? All I know is that Bruce and I know that your duty as a professional golfer is to represent your profession, and you represent everybody that you play with. And you honor the people who came before you, and it's up to you to learn a lot about a lot of things. And I I think that's the duty of a of a professional golfer. I don't know anything about this that has come up. I kind of don't know why they're doing it, but uh I know when Bruce and I learned to play and compete as a professional, we had those things on our minds.

Bruce Devlin 43:12

Well, there's no doubt about it, you're on the right track there, Ben. I agree with you wholeheartedly. We we have to honor those that were before us. Uh it's been a it's been a great pleasure to have you with us today, Ben. We thank you for all your time and uh uh may God bless you.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Well, Bruce, it's always it's been a pleasure to know you forever, and I'm happy to do this uh for you and Mike and love talking about the game, and uh you give Gloria a hug too, and and and your your your boy Kel God. Kel Nagel. There you go, Mike. Kel Nagel, that's a pretty interesting guy right there now, winner of the 1960. British Open at St. Andrews. Pretty good year to do it, wouldn't you think?

Mike Gonzalez 44:04

I think so. Yeah. We've had an o opportunity to talk about a lot of the great Australian players uh with this on this journey that we're on with Bruce. But uh Ben, we really appreciate you being here. We know you've been very gracious with your time, and we couldn't be more grateful for the time you've spent with us today. My pleasure. My pleasure, guys. Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends. Until we tee it up again, for the good of the game, so long, everybody.

Intro Music 44:45

It went smack down the fairway. Then it started to slice just smidge offline. It headed for two, but it bounced off nine. My caddy says long as you're still in the state, you're okay. Yes, it went straight down the middle, quite away.