Jack Nicklaus - Part 3 (The U.S. Amateur and U.S. Open)

Intro Music 0:07

Straight down the middle. It went straight down the middle.

Mike Gonzalez 0:13

Then it started to Welcome to another edition of For the Good of the Game and Bruce Devlin. You know, the last time we had this fellow on, you guys went on and on about throwing stakes out the window or something.

Bruce Devlin 0:26

Yes, we did. But uh I I tell you, I've known this gentleman for 64 years. We first met back in 1960. I think he'll recall that we traveled to play in the U.S. Amateur down in St. Louis and then went to Philadelphia, where he just blistered everybody in the president's cup, and it is indeed a pleasure to have Jack Nicholas back with us again. Thanks for joining us, Jack. We've got to talk about all your major championships today.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Well, that's fine. Yeah, but we got we if you got 10 minutes, we can do that.

Mike Gonzalez 1:04

Yeah. We probably need uh 10 weeks, uh Jack, but uh thanks for joining us. You know, when you uh first joined us back when Bruce and I were just getting started with this program, we hadn't done many interviews, and you were one of our first guests. Since then, we've interviewed 99 of Golf's greatest, and uh we're so happy to have you with us. Uh uh difficult, obviously, to capture a record like yours over the course of a podcast or two, but uh we did cover a lot of fun stuff in our first session, hit some of the highlights, but today we thought we'd focus on your record in the major championships. And uh uh I I think for our listeners, uh it might be good just to share some some uh some stats at the top. Um 164 majors played in. And I would just say that uh during what uh you might consider Jack's prime year, starting from the time he turned professional through, let's say, the year 1987, he made ninety-three percent of the cuts in the majors he played in. Uh a couple of astounding stats, Bruce. Uh he was during that prime period in the top five, over half of the majors he played in. As a matter of fact, in a stretch from 1970 to 1978, a stretch of 33 majors. 31 of those, he was in the top ten. That's some pretty heady playing.

Bruce Devlin 2:31

Yes, it is.

Mike Gonzalez 2:32

Jack, we thought we'd start with uh the U.S. Open because that was the first major not only did you uh play in as a contestant uh back when in your amateur days, but was also the first one you won. So w what are your recollections about that first one you played in way back in 1957 at Inverness?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Well, 57. I was a 17-year-old kid that qualified for the U.S. Open. Uh I went up to uh Inverness and I was playing with Tommy Jacobs and Freddie Wampler in the first first two rounds, and uh I started off with a three-wood and an eight-iron to the first hole and knocked in a 35-foot putt. I parred the second and third hole, and my name went up on the leaderboard, and I immediately made double bogey at number four, but my name was off the leaderboard.

Mike Gonzalez 3:23

That's a pretty good start, though, for an amateur.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, it wasn't bad for a 17-year-old kid, and uh I think I'm not sure whether I think I shot, I'm probably shot 80-80. I'm not sure what I shot, maybe something like that.

Mike Gonzalez 3:38

It wasn't too long after that, uh, after a couple of more US Open starts that uh you had a chance to um to play in 1960 as an as a as an amateur, and uh uh you had a pretty good tournament. While you didn't prevail, uh you finished low not only low amateur, but you finished second in that 1960 uh uh US Open at Cherry Hills.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

I did. I played I played I played at uh Southern Hills in 58, I played Wingfoot in 59, and then Cherry Hills in 1960, and I went to Cherry Hills in 1960 as a U.S. amateur champion. And uh the uh you know back in those days uh they considered a U.S. uh they considered the U.S. amateur as a as a major championship. Uh that's true. It's in Bobby Jones' record and and so forth. And uh uh you know, it wasn't until uh oh, I don't know, probably in the 80s sometime that they decided I had two two too many major championships. They took two of them away from me. But anyway, we got to uh 1960, we're playing uh at uh Cherry Hills in 1996. I came in and was a U.S. amateur champion. And I'll never forget my father came to me about just the day before the tournament. He said, Hey, that's the only time it ever happened in my life. He said, he said, uh, do you see the odds on you winning? I said, What are you talking about? He said, You're 35 to 1. I said, 35 to 1. I said, he says, you want some of that. I thought so. I said, yeah, I'll take$20 of that. And so that's the only bet I ever made in golf in my life. And uh I think I was more excited about the possibility of winning$700 coming down the stretch than I was really worried about the USO, but I was getting married the next month, and uh it was uh, you know, I that$700 I could have used. But uh anyway, I played I played that tournament. I think I was one, I don't see what was I one 40, maybe 40 or 42, something like that. First two rounds, and dad came to me and he says, Guess who you're playing with tomorrow? And the last 36 holes on Saturday. I said, He says, Who's that, Dad? He says, He said, Ben Hogan. I said, Oh, that'll be fun. I'd never met Ben Hogan, and he couldn't have been nicer. He absolutely out here to hurt all the rumors about how tough he was to play with. And he just couldn't have been nicer. He talked what he was what it was appropriate, he didn't talk what it wasn't appropriate. He played golf a lot like I did. He uh, you know, made small talk uh a little bit in between shots, and uh, but when when it kind of time to play, it was you know, he went and played. And that's what I liked. Uh, he was at the time they talked about him freezing over the over his putter. And he did. He froze over the putter a lot, and when he froze over a lot, sometimes he made it and sometimes he didn't. But he he hold a lot of putts that day. And uh uh I enjoyed watching him play. He hit uh he had hit the previous uh 18 greens in the second round in regulation, and he hit the third first 34 greens that we played that day day in regulation, so he hit 52 greens in regulation in a row. Uh he had himself in in contention. We were both in contention to go into the 17th hole. And uh I can take you through the back line, uh, which I will after after I do Hogan. But uh anyway, he had a pitch shot at 17 that landed about six inches over the water, just into the bank, and came back in the water and he made made bogey. And then he then he he lost it on 18 and hooked it in the water and made triple bogey. And so, but that was Hogan. I really enjoyed playing with him. Uh, he was he was a great great great fun to play with. But anyway, myself, I had uh uh I had the lead going into the last nine holes, and uh I remember I hit a three-win and eight iron onto the fringe at uh uh at ten and didn't get it up and down. And then eleven I hit a driver to four iron and went through the green and I I didn't make birdie. And then twelve I hit uh I believe it was a two-iron if I recall, onto the green and I made two, and I walked to the next T and uh uh it had the leaderboard said Nicholas five, Palmer four, Kroll four, cherry four, fleck four, Hogan four, and Suchak four. Oh my maybe I say Jack Fleck. I think Jack Fleck was in there too. There was about six of them or so that were one shot behind me. All of a sudden I'm leading with six holes to play in the US Open. And so I hit a three-wooden uh uh, I think, I think an eight or nine iron onto the green at 13, about 12 feet short of the hole. And I hit my putt and missed the punt that ran up by the hole about two feet. And I got up and there was a ball mark between uh me and the hole. And uh I didn't have the presence of mind, I was so nervous that to ask if I could fix it or not, which obviously I could. Sure, but I didn't, and I missed the putt. I hit it right over and missed the putt. And then I proceeded to three putt the next green, and then I parred uh I parred uh uh 15, uh hit it just over the back edge and chipped it back and made it made my part. 16 I hit it in about four feet with a one iron and a nine iron, and I missed the putt. And seventeen I laid it up, which same as Hogan did, and I hit it about 12 feet behind the hole, and I missed that putt. And 18 I drove it uh the right rough and hit my second shot up on the right fringe, and uh, you know, I thought the turbo was over. Did because I, you know, I screwed up so badly, and I took three to get down. Well, it took Palmer, uh, you know, he holed, I don't know, maybe six or seven foot out of the last hole to win the golf tournament. And uh I shot 39 in the last steinholes, and I've told Palmer many times, I said, Palmer, if I hadn't shot 39 that last stein holes, nobody ever heard of you. So he proceeded to say, yeah, now if I hadn't three-putted uh eight times at Oakmont, nobody ever heard of you either. So anyway. But uh uh I had I I did play well, had a had a good chance to win, and uh uh it was probably the best thing that ever happened to me that I didn't win. Uh because if I think if I'd have won, I'd you know, I've been scratching my ears with my arms extended, and and I think that uh uh I would not have gotten back to work and learned from what I I happened to me at Cherry Hills because I learned a lot from that. I learned that other people were having problems too. Other people, other people are just as nervous as I was to finish. Uh I learned that you didn't have to be perfect, uh, you just had to play solid golf. I learned a lot of things that would help me as I went on and played tournament golf. And uh anyway, that was uh that was Cherry Hills.

Bruce Devlin 10:58

Your partner made a strong statement, Jack, after he'd finished playing with you. Mr. Hogan said that he played with a young guy today that should have won by six or ten shots. So he obviously felt like you probably played the best of all of them.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Well, I played pretty well, but I I he he his quote was he says, I played with a young fellow today, if he'd known how to win, would have won by several shots. And that's what he told Dan Jenkins. And uh anyway, uh Hogan Hogan, I had a really big compliment out from Hogan on that. The next year was at uh we're at the Masters. And Ben walked into the locker room with a couple of pair of shoes, and uh he saw me in the locker room as he walked in. He said, Hey fella, you got a game? And he called everybody fella. And I said, No, I I don't, Mr. Hogan. He said, he says, You want to play? And I said, Absolutely. So we played two practice rounds at Augusta in '61. I was still an amateur. And then he did the same thing at uh Oakland Hills later in the year. Uh I played two practice rounds with him there prior to the U.S. Open. So I got a big compliment from Ben Hogan that he saw something in this young kid that he liked, and he enjoyed playing with him, and he thought that uh, you know, maybe he could help him along. I thought that was, I thought that was I was very flattered by that, and I thought it was very, very, very nice thing for him to do.

Bruce Devlin 12:30

Very nice.

Mike Gonzalez 12:31

You know, Jack, uh you did bring up, and so we should cover these, these other two majors, which uh have gone uncounted, but uh probably should be up there, uh, winning the U.S. amateur in 1959 and 1961. That first one was a one-up win over Charlie Cole at the Broadmoor. And Charlie, of course, a very famous amateur player, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_00 12:53

He was a he was a defending champion, and he was amateur. Yeah, he was uh uh he was I think he was I think Charlie was yeah, maybe not being, I don't remember, I don't remember he was captain of the Walker Cup team that I played on 59, or he might have been or Bill Hyman was, I don't remember. But anyway, uh the uh we were all even. We had the semifinals and the finals were both 36 holes. I beat Gene Andrews in the semifinals two and one, and Co and I I buried the first three holes in the in the final playing co and I was one up. And so I said, Well, we got a match on our hands here today.

Mike Gonzalez 13:31

Game on.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Game on. We got around to the 17th, but we tied after 17. I don't remember whether I won the hole or he did, but it didn't make any difference. We got to 18, we both played three wins off the T as a little par four dog went right over the water. And uh I think Charlie hit a hit an eight-iron first, and his ball went to the back fringe. And he was probably, uh I don't know, maybe 18, 20 feet max. And I and I had a nine-iron then and hit it in about eight feet short of the hole. And Charlie hit a chip coming down the hill that stopped just before it got over the over the front edge of the cup. Another another half a roll and he would hold it. And I turned around and I made the putt. And I think it was the most important putt that I ever made in my life. And because it it it taught me, or I or at least in my head, that uh I could I could make a putt when I needed to make a putt coming down the stretch. And uh I did it under under pressure and when I when when I you know we're supposed to have to make it, and so that that that carried me a lot through my career.

Mike Gonzalez 14:41

Yeah, and uh of course 1960, you you both traveled to St. Louis together, and I think we talked in our first uh get together about Dean Beaman slipping and winning that one, but then you won again in Ick 61. This one uh a little easier, I guess. Uh of course they're never easy, but uh much more comfortable with a win over Dudley Weissong at Pebble Beach, which maybe was a harbinger of things to come there.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Well, I had uh at Pebble Beach, was uh I played a lot of practice rounds with Beaman. And Dean and I used to play a lot of golf together. And uh he said, he said, you know, he says, Have you ever tried walking off a golf course or getting the yardages? And I said, No, I never thought about it, Dean. I said, I always thought my eyes were good enough to do that. He says, Well, I'll tell you. He says, How far do you think that is up there? I said, Oh, I don't know, 150, 155 yards. He said, Well, would you believe it's a would you believe that's 157, or would you believe it's 148, or whatever it was? I said, Well, I'm not sure. He said, Well, let's walk it off. So we walked it off, and whatever it was, it was it was it was different than 150 or 155. It was exactly what it was. So we started, I said, he said, Well, why don't you try that? And so I walked my paces, I tried to get my paces as close to a yard as I could. And I the first hole I marked off was the first hole at Pebble Beach, and there was a big pine tree on the left, and that was uh that was 1, let's see, 136 yards to the front and 160 yards to the back. And then the second hole with the end of the second bucket was 199 to the front, 122 to the back. So those were the first two holes I marked off. I used that same scorecard for probably the next 20 years at Pebble Beach. Oh my amazing. And uh, but anyway, I walked that off, and I was the first when I went to the tour, I was the only player on the tour who walked off yardages. And uh, you know, I got I guess I sort of got the reputation as being the best caddy on tour. And uh the caddies didn't really do anything for me, all they did was carry the bag, and that's really all I wanted a caddy to do anyway. Yeah, I wanted a caddy that I could uh get along with and not have any issues and uh be on you know, do the he'd do the three ups of caddy, and you know, that's show up, keep up, and shut up.

SPEAKER_04 17:04

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

And so uh I uh I try to get that to be uh uh a caddy that would do that, and I ended up had several. Uh the caddy I had at uh Pebble Beach was uh was an old uh uh little short uh uh Portuguese guy named Dee Dee Gonzalvas. And Dee Dee caddied for me in uh at Pebble Beach in 61, but he caddied for Jimmy Johnson when he won the amateur uh back in uh 30 something. When I guess Bobby Jones and so forth. Same caddy. And so Dee Dee caddy for me the first four or five Pebble Beaches that I won, but I walked off the yardages. Dee Dee was fantastic. I learned the greens from Pebble Beach. I'd say, where does that go, Dee Dee? I'd say it looks like it's gonna go about 10 inches right. He said, No, it's gonna go 10 inches left. I mean, you know, as you know, Pebble Beach is pretty hard greenish to read, Bruce.

Bruce Devlin 18:01

Yes, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

And uh yeah, once you got used to figuring out where the that the ocean was west, uh, and uh what you figure it out and you sort of looked at the slope and so forth, you could figure them out, but it took a while. And uh, but uh I I love I love Pebble Beach. Pebble Beach was a you know, I've I've said many times, if I had one round of golf to go play, that's where I'd want to go. And uh, but I love Pebble, I think it's it's a great golf course. I've had great success there, and uh uh, you know, it's uh that was certainly fun that week that I went at one amateur.

Mike Gonzalez 18:37

Yeah. Well, let's move on to 1962, back to the U.S. Open, uh, where you get your first professional winning style.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Let's try let's try 61 first.

Mike Gonzalez 18:48

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

I was Oakland Hills, I was a 21-year-old kid, and uh uh I had uh I was two shots behind Gene Littler with seven holes to play in the golf tournament. And so we got to the uh twelfth hole, which is a par five, and I had a really good drive, and I decided I would try to get home in two. And so I hit a three-wood and just flushed it. And I knew the ball was gonna go on the green, and this is honest truth, there was a whirlwind came through the gallery, and it was just you could see uh the hats blue, and the and and and and and the wind was blowing, and there was a big elm tree about a hundred yards short of the green, and it hit that elm tree as my ball was going by, and it whipped the elm tree, and the elm tree whipped out, and hit my ball hit the elm tree and dropped down. And I pitched it, I pitched it into the bunker and made six rather than making four.

SPEAKER_04 19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

And so, well, bad break, but you know, breaks happened. Uh, I got around, I did I did bogey uh I hit a four-hour at 17, it hit Pim was the back right, and bounced back to the fridge. I didn't get up and down, and I ended up losing to Littler there by three shots. And so I felt I had another good chance of winning the open in 61. Then we went on to 62, and as you talk, I'd had my first year on tour. Uh, I played, you know, back in those days, and Bruce remembers, uh, you uh you once you got on tour, if you kept making the cut, you could keep playing.

SPEAKER_04 20:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

And uh so I got an exemption my first week on tour, which was uh uh at uh LA. And then I made the cut every week and made money. You didn't necessarily make money then, 70 made the cut, and only 50 made money. But I made money in every tournament I played in up until the U.S. Oakland. Oddly enough, I skipped one tournament, I skipped Tucson, and we it was the first year of Durrell, and I was worried about having to go qualify at Durrell. In those days, they couldn't, they couldn't fill the field in 133 players for 144-man field. Could you believe that today? So I got in the field without a uh without an exemption, and uh I finished third and went on and made the cut and money through every tournament to the U.S. Open, and I finished second three times that that spring. I finished second at Phoenix, I lost it to Arnold, I lost the playoff to Bobby Nichols uh at uh Houston, and then I finished second to Gene Littler the week before the U.S. Open at the first uh Thunderbird. And uh the uh so I went to the US Open that I felt like the two previous years uh I should have, you know, should have won one of those two years. Uh I felt very confident about I love the way Joe Dyde set up golf courses. I loved the U.S. Open setup. I've been open on early, played a couple practice rounds. Everything about it. And so I went in there to play and uh I was paired with Arnold the first two rounds. And let's see, I'm not, I can't remember what we shot. I think I shot maybe 70-72, and I think Arnold maybe shot one better. And uh uh then we went to the then we played the last two rounds. Uh I think I played with uh I think I played with uh Billy Maxwell, and I think Arnold played with uh maybe Rossberg, I think. I'm I'm not positive on that. Anyway, uh we shot uh we ended up tying at 283. And I at the 17th hole on that on that tournament, I'd hit I tried to drive the green. I put it in the in the bunker to the right and hit a bad bunker shot out on the into the rough fringe, and I chipped it about five feet by the hole. And Bruce, you remember that putting back uh left to right on that green was very, very quick. And I hit this putt and I said, I gotta make it. And I just rammed it right down the back of the throat of the hole. And I got a letter from Bobby Jones uh after I after I won, and he said, Jack, he says, I watched it that putt you hit on 17, I came right out of my chair. Obviously, he couldn't come out, but his sense of humor was amazing. And so uh I made that and we we tied Arnold and I went on to the playoff. I believe I buried the first three holes of the playoff, and uh uh Arnold never really caught up. But but a very significant thing happened to me in that playoff. Not on not only did I win, but on the uh 13th hole of the playoff, uh I used to I I used to smoke. And I was on uh on the uh 13th hole. I and I we didn't get back in those days we didn't get the the uh the video tape or or whatever went on for a while. It took us, I I didn't get the video of the U.S. Open until December 8th, and one in June.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

So I so I watched the video on December 8th, on the 12th hole, which 13th hole, I'm sorry, it's part three, uh, I had about a 25-foot putt, and I hit the putt up about six inches, I reached out, picked up my cigarette, put it and hang it out of the side of my mouth, I walked up and tapped the putt in. I looked at that and I said, that is the worst example for youth that I've ever seen. And I said, if you're going to be a role model, you're gonna do the right thing. You can't do that. So I never smoked another cigarette on a golf course of my life. So that was one good thing for me. But uh matter of fact, I had a contract with uh LM at the time for for cigarettes, and it was a$10,000 contract. And I as soon as I saw that, I I wrote a check out to$10,000 and sent it back to Leggett and Myers and said, guys, I can't do it. Thank you very much. I appreciate your support, but I just I'm not gonna smoke anymore.

Mike Gonzalez 25:32

That's great. Well that that c you know, Bruce, that calls that calls to question a story I heard from one Gloria Devlin once years ago, where she spoke of uh she spoke of both Jack and Arnie sometimes coming back behind the green, sneaking a cigarette from time to time.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Arnold was the same thing. Arnold smoked uh uh actually, he probably ultimately quit before before I did. I mean, I I recreationally smoked after that at parties and things, but you know, never never out in public. And uh uh I think Arnold's quit before that, but Arnold Arnold was uh he always had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. Most of the guys didn't say Bruce, you you you smoked sure did. Yeah, we all did. And uh, you know, it was just I don't know, just part of part of what people did.

Mike Gonzalez 26:28

Hard to believe they let us smoke on airplanes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Our airplanes are I can tell a story now, which uh which I which I love telling. It's funny, I played a TV match in uh I can't remember when it was, it was probably early 70s or mid-70s in St. Andrews. And I played with uh Sean Connery, Ben Crenshaw, and Glenn Campbell. And we got done with the match, and I had a at that time I had a uh Falcon 10 airplane, a little small airplane, small jet, make big fly across the Atlantic, takes big three stops coming back. And Glenn Campbell said, he said, can I get a ride back? I said, sure, come on, Glenn, let's go. So we left the match, hopped on the airplane, and we're on the way back. And Glenn said, Do you mind if I smoke? I said, I don't care if you smoke, that's fine, because everybody smoked in those days. And uh so Glenn Glenn pulled out his some some some weed and started smoking his weed. I said, Glenn, I said, You brought this on the airplane? I said, the thing's off and look at this airplane, don't confiscate my airplane. I made him, I made him, I made him, I made him eat it. And he did. Oh yeah, I had no issues, but I got the biggest kick out of that. And it's a fun it was so funny. Glenn looked at me and said, seriously? I said, Absolutely. We're saying, we're not going to take make a landing with you having that in your pocket. Oh, that's terrific. Glenn's gone now, but Glenn was a good guy, and you know, but a lot of guys back in those days smoked.

Mike Gonzalez 28:18

Loved East Golf. Yeah, that was uh that was probably a happy flight for him.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 28:24

Well, uh, we come out of 1962. Is it okay to go to 1967 or is there any intervening opens you might want to talk about there?

SPEAKER_00 28:31

I didn't really do very well. I mean, I I in 62 I had a caddy at uh Oakmont named Topsy Bugna. And Topsy had been there forever. And you know, in those days you drew for your caddy and uh, you know, out of the hat. And I had uh, you know, I had some good caddies, I had some bad caddies, had some experienced caddies. Well, anyway, Topsy was good, and then I wanted Oak Mott. And we went on to uh uh Brookline, and I had a 15-year-old kid who'd never been on a golf course before.

Mike Gonzalez 29:09

Oh my.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

And the kid didn't, he didn't it wasn't wrong with the kid, anything wrong with the kid. It's just he didn't have any experience, and I spent my whole time trying to teach him what to do and where to go and what to be, and I missed the cut. Yeah, so you know, I mean, is a caddy uh a great benefit? Sometimes a caddy can be of great benefit, but sometimes more so if you're not on your own game, a caddy can hurt you, and so I'll never forget that. So uh anyway, we had 63. I missed the cut there, but I guess we played 64 was the year that uh Venturry uh had his great uh victory at uh Washington. Let's see.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Let's see, 65, 66, uh I can't even remember where they were.

Mike Gonzalez 29:59

I think player, I think play you kind of helped player with Bell Reeve, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:03

With his preparation and what Gary was Gary was getting ready to go play a tournament. I said, Gary, you see, you know, we had the U.S. Open to win when make finish your grand slam. I said, Why in the world don't you go to Bell Ree and practice? Go the week before. So we went the week before. Big mistake on my part. He won.

Bruce Devlin 30:24

That's right. Big kill.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Anyway, so Gary, Gary did that. That he won. That was great. Yeah. I can't remember 66.

Mike Gonzalez 30:33

Well, the Olympic Club, and that's uh that's the year, Bruce. I think you and Gloria flew out with uh Valerie and Mr. Hogan for that event, didn't you? Correct.

Bruce Devlin 30:41

Yeah, it was, yeah. They opened in San Francisco.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

That was Casper and uh Palmer. And uh that's where they ended up with Casper made the great comeback on Arnold, beat him in the playoff, and then uh uh I finished third that year, and then 67 was at Baldus Roll. And we we went to Baldus Roll, and uh I hadn't been putting very well that spring, and I'm playing some practice rounds with Dean Beaman. So anyway, we're playing practice round, and I'm putting terrible, and Dean says, Hey, you wanna why don't you try this butter? He said, he said, uh he said to Fred, uh, Fred, go out of the car and get that old bullseye I gave you. And so we went out and got this car thing out of out of the car, and it was a bullseye that he painted white. And uh I looked at it, it looked good to me, so I went ahead and putted with it, and I won the tournament. And so we called it White Fang. And uh I got that putter. Oddly enough, when I got down and going to my museum, uh, I was looking for clubs, and there's only two clubs I couldn't find. One was that was that putter and my big putter that uh I won the 86 Masters with. And uh so anyway, it was uh Steve's, my son's 40th birthday, and his uh uh his roommate and played play they played football with the Florida State, uh Joe uh uh Wessel uh came up to came to the birthday party and he said, Hey, Mr. Nicholas, I found this old putter that Steve gave me on the garage. He says, Is there any significance to you? And it was White Fang.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Oh, white fang.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Steve had given it to me. He says, Oh, dad doesn't use this anymore, you take it. So anyway, he had it in the garage, brought it, I got it back. So he said, uh, well, he said, I want to give it back to you. He said, Oh Joe, why don't you give it to the give it to the museum? I said, You get a nice deduction for it. No, no, no, no. I don't want to do that. I don't want any money, I don't want anything. I just want you to have it. I said, Well, Joe, that's awful nice. Is there something I can do for you? He says, Well, I'll tell you. I said, I my dad would like to see Augusta one time. Can we arrange for us to get on the golfers? I said, better than that, I'll take you to the golf course. So I took Steve, Joe and his father, and my son Steve went and played around at Augusta for White Fang.

Bruce Devlin 33:16

Oh, that's tragic.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yeah, it was a nice weekend. Yeah, and uh anyway, uh that was uh that was that was 1967.

Mike Gonzalez 33:27

Yeah, uh broke Hogan's scoring record. Uh you had a pretty nice one-iron shot to finish, did you not?

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yeah, yeah, I hit uh on 18. I had a I had a uh three-shot lead over Arnold, and I remembered uh went through my mind there was that creek on the left where uh I think it was uh Tony Monero hooked it into that creek and it cost him the open 40 years before, 30 years, whatever it was. And uh I said, Well, I don't want to do that. I said, all I need to do is make about probably about six and up in the golf tournament's over. I said, but I do need to, if I make four, I can make Hogan's record. I'm not worried about the record, I want to win the tournament. So I hit a one hour off the T and I hit it just in the edge of the rough into a uh uh well it was it was a it was a wheel mark from a golf cart, or it's probably a uh one of those uh the carts they use for television. And I didn't they wouldn't give me they wouldn't give me relief from it. So I chopped it out of there down the fairway. And I got I got down the fairway and I had 238 yards left, and it was there's a storm coming on, and there was a little little breeze in her in my face, and I said, Well, I said I don't want to be throwing a three-wood up in that air and having a chance of that getting out there wild. I said, even if I put a one iron in the bunker or whatever I put it, I said, I'll be fine. And so I hit a one iron and I flushed it, and I carried the bunker onto the green, about 22 feet short of the hole and hold the putt, not only to win the turban, but also to break home quicker. Now I've gone back to that spot a hundred times, and I've figured out a driver teed it up, and I can't get over that bunker. I can't hit it that far. But I couldn't hit it that far. But anyway, that particular time I did. And uh uh so I uh that that that that one iron I'll remember forever.

Mike Gonzalez 35:30

Yeah, yeah. Well, the the following year, while it wasn't a win, it was again one of your seconds, and this was to uh Lee Trevino breaking through for his first major with a win at uh at Oak Hill. Were you playing together in the last round or so?

SPEAKER_00 35:43

No, no, I I I Trevino finished fifth at uh uh bald as roll. And I remember the next week I was at Cleveland watching the guys warm up. I was going down to I saw this guy hitting balls out. I said, Who in the world is that? He said, Oh, that's that guy that finished fifth last week, Lee Trevino. I said, Really? That's sweet. Well, he's never gonna win anything. And then I went down and watched him a little bit, and I said, Hey, that's pretty efficient. And I think you know, of course, I've I have I have a world of respect for Lee Trevino. I think he's one of the great ball strikers that ever played the game.

Bruce Devlin 36:22

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

And uh he's fantastic, and so anyway, uh the next year up now, Lee's behind me, and I got sort of on a run last round, and I can't remember exactly what happened, but uh uh I think Trevino hold long putts at uh 16 and 17 and long each putts, and ended up, I think he I think he may beat me by one, maybe beat me by two, I don't remember. But uh it was uh it was a pretty good tournament. Of course, it was uh it was a it was the uh bringing out of Lee Trevino.

Mike Gonzalez 37:03

Yep, it sure was. It sure was. And then uh next couple years, Orville Moody, the Sarge wins the Champions Club, Jackie Burks and Jimmy Demeritz place, and then Tony Jacqueline with a big breakthrough for English golfers everywhere at uh Hazel Teen at 70.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Yep, Jacqueline 70, and then uh see, where was 71?

Mike Gonzalez 37:23

Uh Marion.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Marion, huh? That's where I lost for the playoff to Mr. Trevino.

Mike Gonzalez 37:30

That was the old snake thing that a lot of us uh remember as kind of a dish.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

I caused the snake thing myself. Lee was looking through his bag and he found the snake and laughing about one of his kids and so forth. And I said, throw it to me. So that's what everybody said. Oh, it's Trevino's, you know, play gamesmanship and throwing snakes at Nicholson. I'd ask for him to throw it over. But anyway, that was uh I mean I but that that particular thing we got to the playoff, and I I left it in the bunker at two, and I left it in the bunker at three. And Lee got about a three-shot lead on me and uh never never let up. I did I I couldn't I couldn't get it back.

Mike Gonzalez 38:12

Yeah. Well, you you beat uh uh one of Bruce's fellow countrymen at Pebble Beach in 1972 to win by three. That was Bruce Crampton. Uh Bruce, probably, if you look back, uh one of the best records uh in terms of not winning a major of any of the golfers that have ever played. And uh uh course that was uh the tournament where, among other things, you hit that famous one iron at 17.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yep, I had uh 219 on that shot into the win, win left to right. I had a I think I had a two-sh at the point at that time. Uh I didn't want to, again, one didn't want to play a three-wood, but want to take a chance. I thought I needed three wood to get there. And I said, but I'd have to, with that left to right into the into a swind, I'd had to hook it because I wasn't going to start it out over the water. And uh I said, no, if I hit it the front bunker, I hit it at the front bunker, I can get it up and down. And so I hit the hit the one iron and flushed it, and I carried the bunker and it took a couple bounces, hit the base of the flag, and stopped right there. And uh, I think the ball would have, I think the ball would have probably ended up being you know five or six feet by the hole, but uh it was uh shot. I would have made it made for a pretty easy two.

Bruce Devlin 39:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

And then of course it allowed me to play the last hole any way I wanted. I think I'm not sure. I think I three-putted the last hole. I'm not sure, but I think I did.

Mike Gonzalez 39:40

Well, you you said earlier, Jack, that uh Pebble, of course, would be the one place you'd want to play if you had one round left to play somewhere. How many golf courses do you think you've played around the world in your lifetime?

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Not very many, really. Played uh seriously. I mean, I played uh played played the tournaments we played on, and I really played very little uh elsewhere. I didn't I think Bruce may be the same. Maybe he might have played a little more than I did. I didn't even bother to play other golf courses.

Bruce Devlin 40:08

A little more international.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah, I didn't play exhibitions and that kind of stuff, but I never I never went out and sought to play golf courses that I hadn't seen. You know, I never I was never I never did that. And uh maybe I should have, I don't know, but uh uh I was pretty focused on my own game as it related to the next tournament, and yeah, I didn't really want to be wasting my time and energy going out and seeing things that didn't mean anything to me.

Mike Gonzalez 40:37

Yeah, well, I guess my point in asking was that uh uh in your lifetime you've certainly seen your share of great, great golf courses. So I'm just wondering at what point in your life did you did you say this is where I want to play my last round?

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Oh, I don't know. I probably uh I don't know, 20 years ago maybe. I mean, if I look at Pebble, I won the amateur there. Then I think I won uh I think I won three three crossings there. Yeah, yeah. I won I won I won the US Open there, and I won two shell matches there. So I had some pretty good success at Pebble Beach. Yeah, and uh I just I just enjoyed the atmosphere, enjoyed playing it. And I I mean obviously the winter conditions were not the best. I love the uh the summer and fall conditions better because they were yeah, they're a little firmer and uh uh more like more like what how pebbles should play.

SPEAKER_04 41:35

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 41:36

Uh you know, if we look at your next win in the U.S. Open, which came in 1980, it came over a fellow that Bruce and I had a chance to say hello to uh this past June at Pinehurst as they opened up the new World Golf Hall of Fame. That was the South Aoki.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

I remember playing a practice round uh a week before the tournament, and I said, Man, I set the open record on this golf course. I said, This is a tough golf course. How in the world is that shoot that kind of a low score? Then I went out and shot a lower score.

Mike Gonzalez 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

And I yeah, it was uh I think it's uh I I think baldest roll is a you know it was certainly a great golf course when I played it. They've changed it now. I'm not too real fond of what they changed, but uh uh they made a lot of things that I think were they shouldn't have done, but that's all right. It's uh it's still no matter what it is, it always will have fond memories in my heart.

Mike Gonzalez 42:31

Opening round 63.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

63. Weiskop had finished with 63 earlier in the day, and I came to the 18th, and I needed I had about a two-foot putt for uh for 62, and I missed the little putt. Little little breaking right to left putting, I swung around the hole. And I can't believe that I missed that little putt. I got nobody ever shot 62 at a U.S. open. I didn't know that at the time, and but uh you know, I I just missed the putt. You missed putts.

SPEAKER_04 43:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

I think to get to 63, I must have made a few getting there, getting there.

Mike Gonzalez 43:08

So uh 2000 would have been your final U.S. Open, I think. Uh replacing Payne Stewart in the opening pairings with Paul Lowry and the U.S. amateur winner David Gossett.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Yeah, I played there and uh uh I ended it on Friday, unfortunately. I uh I missed the cut, but I remember the last hole. Uh I hit a good drive, and I said, Well, I'm gonna my last time see if I can knock it on the green. And I hit a three, went right in between the two bunkers, I bounced up on the green about, I don't know, about 35, 40 feet short of the hole. Pit was the back. And I got up and the the crowd was so great and everything, everybody was so so so nice. And I had tears in my eyes. When I when I hit my putt and I hit it fat. I was about ten feet short and three putting. So I three putting my last screen in my U.S. Open. I promised I'd never three putt again.

Mike Gonzalez 44:12

So, Jack, looking back on the U.S. Open, kind of put it in perspective for our listeners. As an American-born golfer, where does the U.S. Open stand amongst the majors in your mind?

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Well, number one for me. I'm an American. It's a championship of my country. I think for the rest of the world, probably the British Open and or the Open Championship. I think that's sort of the way it works. And uh, you know, anyway, uh I've had, you know, I had my chance to win my fifth fifth open several times. Particularly the last time was at Pebble Beach. And that's uh people have often asked me, you know, do I have any shots that I'd like to have back? And I said, I think about I said, I don't really see any shots that I'd like to have back, but I have two shots I'd like to have I'd have somebody else take back.

Bruce Devlin 45:04

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Well, it was 72 that from the 17th hole when Trevito chipped in at Mirfield. He kept me from winning winning the British Open again. And matter of fact, winning the first three legs of the Grand Slam that year. And then of course Watson's chip in at Pebble Beach and what was it, 82? Yeah, 83, which we were. 82. Yeah, I'm sitting there. I'm on the 18th screen. Jack Whitaker is interviewing me and saying, he says, Jack, it's been an honor to be uh in the presence in your presence winning your fifth US Open, and all of a sudden, as we're watching the monitor, this roar goes up at 17. And I'm sitting there says, whoops. Anyway, Tom played a great pitch shot. I mean, a pitch shot that basically had to hit the hole or it's gonna go 10 or 12 feet by.

SPEAKER_04 45:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

And if it doesn't go in, I'm gonna win the tournament. And uh uh so you know, but anyway, those are the two shots I'd like to have back.

Mike Gonzalez 46:08

Yeah. Well, and and I we remember asking that question about if you had one mulligan, and you're the only guest of the 99 we've had who wanted somebody else's shots to have a do over.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Absolutely, one of their shots over. But anyway, it's it's okay. I mean, do do I have that I have something that I probably could have had over? Sure. Absolutely, we all do. Sure. But uh uh those are the ones that really stick out of my mind that that uh uh there's somebody else did something really good. I mean, Trevito and Watson strips are really good. And they uh that's what that's what you do to win championships sometime, and they did it, and they did it.

Mike Gonzalez 46:48

Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends until we tee it up again for the good of the game. So long, everybody.

Intro Music 47:13

It went smack down the fairway, and it started to slice, just smidge off line. It headed for two, but it bounced off nine. My caddy says long as you're still in the state, you're okay.