Catherine Lacoste - Part 3 (Winning the British and U.S. Amateurs)

Outro Music 0:07

Straight down the middle. It went straight down the middle. Then it started to do it.

Mike Gonzalez 0:15

So you kept winning coming out of that U.S. Open win, of course. Uh quite a few other victories in team events and individual events. Uh had a chance to pair up with a Spaniard at Warp at Warplesden back in 1960.

Catherine Lacoste 0:29

Pepe Gancedo was one of the best uh Spanish amateurs ever. He was a fantastic player. He's great fun. Andalusian, also, like my husband. And he was so much fun. And I brought him over for the Warposton Forsompers I played earlier before with uh George Evans, who's a pro from from Warposton, I think, or West Hill. And um I played with him and uh won. And uh we had the joy and the prize giving. He got up his guitar, he had a cape, Spanish cake, and started playing Spanish tunes, and uh and I think the public enjoyed that very much.

Mike Gonzalez 1:05

Yeah, I bet they did. Uh and Amy going into to 1968, you mentioned coming across again playing in the in the uh women's U.S. Open as the as the defending champion. This one is at Moslem Springs. And uh this is when uh when uh Suzy Maxwell Burning as a newlywed won, uh you tied 13 and never played another U.S. Open.

Catherine Lacoste 1:30

Well, 69 I was um already uh engaged, and um I'd already won the the amateur and uh the as you say the French, uh the Spanish. I was sort of uh trying thinking of uh getting married the year after. And uh I don't know for what reason I didn't go that year, but uh I think uh I know I I think there was uh yes, there was a European team championship, which in fact I'd uh the the the French team the French uh Federation wasn't very happy with me for not playing it in 65 and in 67 to go and play the US Open. And that year I decided to play it, and uh I think we won it that year also. So perhaps it was for a reason like that, but uh I was I'd won it once and I defended. I thought I had to defend it uh uh 68 and then 69, as I say. My life was certainly changing, and uh so uh I didn't play it. And after that I started having children. I could do everything. Four children in ten years, and uh two misha miscarriages, also, so it's a little bit much.

Mike Gonzalez 2:46

Well, so so you more than anybody can appreciate then how some of these women pros balance life and golf.

Catherine Lacoste 2:55

Sure, very much. It's very, very difficult. And I think somebody very similar was very similar to me in that way, was Lorena O'Choa, which is a great friend of mine, and she did practically exactly the same as me, is that she played and won practically well, a lot of the big tournaments, and Sally decided after that to have a family and to have children.

Mike Gonzalez 3:18

Yeah, yeah, and uh she just turned 42 yesterday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Um but Bruce, there were some still some big wins to come. I mean, you come right out of that 68 women's US Open, and and I I think particularly for Americans, we appreciate what a big deal the Western amateurs were.

Catherine Lacoste 3:40

Sure. I enjoyed that very much, the women's Western Amateur. And the the one who's played at the same time, the Broadmoor International. I played those two in 68.

Bruce Devlin 3:52

And you won there that and you were again the first uh foreign player to have won that championship in 1968.

Catherine Lacoste 3:59

Oh, that I didn't know. Something you taught me.

Bruce Devlin 4:02

Yeah. They won the French ladies closed amateur championship too in 68. Oh, you had a great year.

Catherine Lacoste 4:12

Yes, as I'd say, it was uh the year from October 68 to October 69, they didn't uh lose any tournament, and I really played practical than the Spanish uh two, and uh any I I'm not sure that there's anybody who has ever passed 12 months without woo losing a game in match play or metal play.

Mike Gonzalez 4:33

Yeah. I I don't know how many competitions that encompassed, but uh it's incredible.

Catherine Lacoste 4:39

It's just a lot. I can tell you it was a lot, but I don't know. Well, the the Spanish, the British, the US Amateur, the team uh European team championship, uh uh the I mean practically all uh most of the ones that were played at that time, there weren't as many as now, obviously.

Mike Gonzalez 4:57

Yeah. Uh in June of 69, of course, Bruce uh she plays in the and and and wins the the one event she wanted to win, the British Lady, for a long time.

Catherine Lacoste 5:08

Right?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Exactly, six years. It took me six years.

Bruce Devlin 5:12

Well, it was quite a victory, right? And you know, when you started in '69, the f the first victory had uh early in '69 was uh Hovis International at Moore Park, and you uh you won by only 15 shots in that tournament. So you must have been feeling pretty good about the start of 1969. Uh maybe that's what uh spurred you for the British amateur.

Catherine Lacoste 5:37

And that the advice of uh Roberto um Vincenzo. Roberto Vincenzo. I must say it was a joy to that uh my mother could come to the six tournaments and she saw me want it to win it, which was probably uh obviously for her something. Something also that I didn't tell you is the Eusopon I won it the day of my father's birthday.

Mike Gonzalez 5:57

Right. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was 63 years old that day. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Uh and this win at the British Ladies Amateur 1969, which you mentioned came at Royal Port Rush, was by one up a match, one up over Ann Urban. And this happened, this happened just a couple of weeks after you won that Hovis International Tournament.

unknown 6:19

Yeah.

Catherine Lacoste 6:19

And I I uh I was three down at one time, and it was only 18 whole final.

Mike Gonzalez 6:26

Oh, is that right?

Catherine Lacoste 6:27

Sure.

Mike Gonzalez 6:31

Only mother duo, mother-daughter duo to have ever won this one, huh?

Catherine Lacoste 6:36

Yeah. I don't know if the Wolvers and Forsum she won it also. I'm not sure that the other mother and daughter won it. I'm not I don't know. That's uh but we both won the uh the Warbus and Forsums also.

Mike Gonzalez 6:49

And as Bruce had mentioned, the only woman to have ever held the U.S., British, French, and Spanish titles at the same time. Um you qualified first, so you must have been the qualifying medalist the previous year. Um but you kind of bombed out early.

Catherine Lacoste 7:08

Yes, as I say, and it was there where my my mother said it must have been a blessing in the disguise.

Bruce Devlin 7:14

You never know.

Mike Gonzalez 7:16

For a woman from France, uh, at the time, what felt most important to you, winning the the British ladies or the U.S. amateur?

Catherine Lacoste 7:27

The the obviously emotionally the British was very important to me because of my mother. For me to win, obviously, the amateur, US amateur after having won the open was sort of fantastic also. I mean, the they all had the the special obviously the biggest is the US Open. That's so obvious because of the pros. But uh, and the world team championship uh some with for my country is also fantastic. And it's very difficult for me to say which was uh emotionally my mother's, I think was very important. Yeah, especially, I mean, she was there every time, and I'm she never she was incredibly good because she never said, Oh, you must win this year or whatever. She didn't say a word. She was a very, very British, educated uh person, very sweet, but very British. She didn't keep kept things for herself. And uh, but she uh she helped me tremendously to travel me, obviously. She was a wonderful travel comp companion, and uh she knew she was funny because she was uh walking around a lot with Enid Wilson, that you probably heard of. Uh Enid Wilson was uh writer in the telegraph, and uh she played many tools with my mother when they were young. So uh she she she was playing and she was watching the game with my mother, and they chatted a lot around because they were friends, and so it was fun for her also to have somebody who would talk to her, and she for see me play after having seen my mother win the the the British, also it's just uh great fun.

Bruce Devlin 9:04

So, Bruce, that next big win came down by you, the uh Los Calinas Country Club, Women's US Amateur Championship, where you beat uh Shelley Hamlin uh three and two in the final.

Catherine Lacoste 9:20

And the semifinal uh Ann Questwells, who is uh also a great player. She sure was. And it was August, uh 40 degrees, Gatorade around the course, and then there was a big storm that stopped us. In one of the rounds, it was so hot that it made us stop in the middle in the pro shop for a few minutes to cool down because it was so hot.

Mike Gonzalez 9:45

Was that your first introduction to Gatorade?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

I think so. I think so.

Mike Gonzalez 9:52

I kind of remember that in high school football when we were first introduced to that around that same time. Uh um would you say that that trophy you won was gotta be one of the most beautiful trophies that's ever been made?

Catherine Lacoste 10:05

Certainly. And I do know that I was lucky enough at that time I was able to bring it back to France. Really? And the British and the US Open. There would be good, I traveled both uh both trophies to France.

Mike Gonzalez 10:20

That's a magnificent trophy. Of course, what's cool now, uh having just visited the uh USGA museum back in May, is you look up on the board and you see US women's amateur winner, US Open winner, Catherine Lacoste. On the board forever.

Catherine Lacoste 10:43

That's fantastic. I was I enjoyed very much the museum they put up in Pebble Beach. It was great. I mean they really did uh it was so pretty, so well exposed and everything. It was uh I think the USJ does a fantastic job for history of golf.

Mike Gonzalez 11:01

Anything else you want to cover with the US women's amateur?

Catherine Lacoste 11:05

Uh no, I think it was uh just remembering that it was very hot. Uh then when on the on the Friday, I think there was a big storm at one time. So but um I mean I had Ann Coswell, then Shelley Hamlin was in the finals, and um we had a very good game, and uh there was also uh Joanne Gunderson who came and played it, but I think she hadn't kicked out pretty early.

Mike Gonzalez 11:32

The great Gandhi. What an amateur what an amateur she was in a fantastic amateur.

Catherine Lacoste 11:40

It's so funny as I said, because she she we worked with her, I think her husband at that time, and they worked very hard in sort of practice, and she didn't have time to practice herself. So she stopped for the for the big big tournaments and started the first the first rounds. She didn't play very well and started to get better and better. She got through two or three rounds. I mean, there's nobody could stop her. That's what happened, I think, in Birmingham when I played the amateur.

Mike Gonzalez 12:07

But um you wonder what she would have done as an amateur had she stayed an amateur, but you also wonder what she could have done as a pro had she turned pro earlier because she waited for a while. Exactly.

Catherine Lacoste 12:20

Oh, that is an amateur. I think she won practically everything, you know? Yeah. An amateur. I think she was fantastic. I mean, it's very, very good.

Mike Gonzalez 12:28

And and quite a character.

Catherine Lacoste 12:32

Incredible. She's so much fun.

Mike Gonzalez 12:36

Yeah, we sure had a lot of fun visiting with her.

Catherine Lacoste 12:38

So it was what was funny also yesterday at the U.S. Amateur, something I remember that the the the amateurs at that time, it was after the US Open, obviously, and there were no pros there, but they made up a little song about me uh the having won that and having won with the amateurs, and they're all the amateurs obviously very pleased that an amateur had beaten the pros.

Mike Gonzalez 13:00

Yeah. You didn't see the jealousy there with that group as you would have with the pros, right? No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Obviously not.

Mike Gonzalez 13:09

So, as we talked about, you continued your winning ways up through the end of uh 69. There was another Vagliano trophy win, the European Ladies Team Championship leading France to victory there, the French Open Amateur Matchplay Championship, which was your second win there, the French Ladies Closed Amateur Championship, and then uh uh also the Spanish International Ladies Amateur Championship that year, where you won ten and nine. Yeah.

Catherine Lacoste 13:39

Yes. The poor the poor Habit was a bit uh I think she was uh in British, but I'm not sure quite quite uh which uh uh which part of Britain. But uh obviously well I as I I think it was the uh the round that I had the 62. Oh, it was probably Linda Ben Dennison Penda, was it? I think so.

Mike Gonzalez 14:05

Uh in in that particular one it was Marquesa de Villa Alegre.

Catherine Lacoste 14:11

Oh that's in Spain. Oh yes, sorry, in Spain, yes. Yes. I thought you were talking about France when uh Mofon then where I played with Linda Dennis and Penda at the 62. Obviously, after like 18 holes, I was I don't know how many up.

Mike Gonzalez 14:26

Yeah. So you you've talked a little bit about what's going on in your life course. Um, you know, you're now uh uh what twenty-five or so years old.

Catherine Lacoste 14:37

I got married. I got married in August uh August seven 70. Then played uh months later, I played the did play the world team championship, and then uh was uh already pregnant, so I didn't play for quite a time. And uh when I got better I could play. I could I was selected for the 72, but I was found out I was pregnant, so then I didn't stop playing because I didn't want to have a risk. In fact, had a miss miscarriage then, and then uh had my second child in 73, no, 74, sorry. And um then had another child in 76, 77, uh and one in 80. So and in between I managed to play a few world team championships, but and I played a European team championship also in 75, which we won also. And um, but individual, I didn't really play many because I was living in Madrid, and it was sort of difficult to to leave Madrid to go and play the French Championships and uh leave my children, and uh I enjoyed having them also.

Mike Gonzalez 15:52

You're sort of mid-20s, and you really sort of shut down for all intents and purposes your serious individual career, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Sure.

Mike Gonzalez 16:03

So you continued on playing, uh not quite as frequently, uh, but at a fairly high level in these team championships, and uh uh you know the list just goes on and on. Through the 70s, uh really into the into the 80s, you you were able to play in some some senior events, but uh uh it was, I suppose, not quite as serious for you as it uh would have been when you were 24, 25 years old.

Catherine Lacoste 16:27

Yeah, the scenes they were serious, but uh it's a team event. In fact, we won one in Helsinki, which is great fun because there were uh my old friends, a really old team that we won, uh with Florence Mogodal, who's a very good French player, Cecilia Mogodal Golso, who was uh Gaeton's wife, uh, and uh Claudine was there on the team also. So it's a sort of group of old friends, but uh I mean winning five times out of six in those times was in the beginning of the 2000 was good. And then I had me my my knees uh failed and I had two replacements, and then uh it's a little bit difficult, and I had a replacement in the shoulder also, and uh then I mean as I say, I'm not playing golf anymore. But if I if I played golf, I probably do 80 yards or something like that, and I don't think that's much fun. No. I was considered at one time probably one of the longest. Obviously, it wasn't as long now as now, but and I was short, I was only five foot uh three or something like that. But uh so I was short, but I managed to get a distance, which was I remember a comment of uh Karen Mann, who was a great friend, and she was a wonderful lady also. And she said, It's not and I think it's Atlantic City, where she said, This is not fair, you being so small and you hit the boat so far. She was so tall, she was six foot and something, so it was uh big difference, and uh but uh so but she had that comment, which she had a lovely sense of humor. So it is fun.

Mike Gonzalez 18:09

Well, I think we'll all agree that it's an easier game with most of your original body parts.

Catherine Lacoste 18:15

That's for sure. That's for sure. But I feel like Robocop at the moment with uh three replacements, two 2Ds, and one shoulder.

Mike Gonzalez 18:26

So it's uh Yeah, the game's hard enough as it is, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Exactly. Exactly.

Mike Gonzalez 18:31

So tell us about some of your other uh uh favorite players that uh you you you ran across. I I I I suppose um uh with many of our listeners here in the States and you having an opportunity to come over a few times playing in some U.S. women's opens, we've talked a lot about the foundation uh formation of the LPGA Tour, some of the original founders. Uh how many of those ladies were you able to meet as a young young lady?

Catherine Lacoste 18:58

Uh to meet, I met Douglas Petitburg very well, Carol Mann. I enjoyed very much and was a great friend. She was sweet. She tried to get me in the Hall of Fame, but uh didn't manage it. But um, and uh I don't know, uh a lot of them I got on very well. I didn't play that many times with them, yeah. But I um those I really m enjoyed. Murbria, we talked about also. I saw Sandra Haney also, and the a bit younger I saw a few of them uh around Julie Ingster, I met well. Uh Anika, I saw in the Broadmoor in '95. I saw her win the first one, which was uh which was fun. Um and in the French Patricia Manila book, obviously I knew very well. I saw Lorena Ochoa quite a lot, uh, because she claimed to play Evian, which I went to quite a few times. And uh she's a lovely lady also. And uh I've I found similar thousands to me, even through the after the after when she decided to to leave golf to have children, but uh even the way she attacked the green, I think uh there was some some things that I found similar to my way of playing. And uh and she was she was fun, she had a lot of fun. I think uh one certainly very important is having fun at the game. I see some of them n nowadays or even before are too serious. So if you don't smile my my father had a saying, say, smile at the ball and it'll go in the hole. I think it's very important. Uh I remember because it leave takes away a bit of tension from your body also if you smile. Even if you don't feel like smiling, you relax a bit and it's that's very good for putting, obviously. And um I think uh the golf is uh fun, even though you can play pros and amateurs the same thing. If you don't enjoy the game, I think you can't play very well. I think um I don't know, Celine, I know it doesn't smile very much, but I think she does smile a bit and uh and she plays so well, it's fantastic what she's done. There's some Céline Herbain is a very good player, also. Some French, I think they're starting to play very well. And I'm I think there's a generation that is at the moment in the sort of universities, you'd probably be surprised how good they are. There's a uh French generation coming up who's uh we we have a foundation in my family who has uh a special part for trying helping the young pros, the just starting pro to come come over to the States and do their cards. The the the first first thought is to try and see if another French can and an amateur can win the US Open, but I for Mother haven't managed that. But uh it's certainly in the back of my mind that I'd be a joy for me obviously and uh I don't know if it'll happen because there are lots of people want to win it. But at least to get them we try and help them to get over to the qualifying rounds and uh the they they're not doing a bad job at all. I mean so we see if uh they they can get at the moment that quite a few in the university I think can be very good players.

Mike Gonzalez 22:34

Good. Do you you think there'll in the future be any more lady amateur champions like yourself, like Carol Semple Thompson, like Marlene Street, lifelong amateurs who compete and win at a high level? Or is there just too much money around these days for these these these girls to pass?

Catherine Lacoste 22:55

I don't think I think it's uh very single people uh who have a very special character. Uh somebody like Gandhi I mean sh she was an amateur she she could have won anything uh obviously even Anne Course Wells was a fantastic player. Marlene Street obviously also I think they can the thing is it's very tempting for youngsters to turn pro very early. So if they're too tempted it's difficult to start stay as an amateur.

Bruce Devlin 23:29

But it might be a configuration it can happen I think I mean uh yeah the one thing that makes it quite difficult as well I think is that uh golf has grown so much the last 10 or 15 years that a lot of the people that are in this in the sport business the you know golf club business and you know the some of these kids sign a contract with them it's you know more than more than probably Gandhi ever made in her life you know so it's uh it's uh it's tough to tough to go try and uh play amateur all the time when when they put that sort of money up in front of people especially I mean there's no doubt a champion is not made by money it's not made by other people you've got to have the guts in yourself to be a champion.

Catherine Lacoste 24:22

Yeah um I think sometimes they they're too too much helped in a way they've got to fight on their own and believe in themselves and if they have too much support sometimes it takes away this wanting of fighting I think. Yeah um you're not a champion made by somebody else. No so you found plenty of other things to keep you occupied as you you know golf became less important uh you're involved in the family business you're involved in the in the golf club that your grandfather founded yes uh chantecot was uh it's a wonderful golf course I think it's uh certainly is considered one of the best in in France for what in any case many years and um it was founded by my grandfather who wasn't a very low-handicap but my mother certainly uh helped it she was uh president for 45 years and then passed on the hand to me for 35 years and uh so I was uh president there I had four children to also to look after which I enjoyed very much and uh took a lot of my time um I was at the on the board of the Lacoste shirt also for for many years so I was yes I was very busy in any case I mean I I am I'm not a person that gets bored uh anytime even now which I can't move quite as much I'm busy on the on the computers I've always enjoyed computers very much which is really a big part of life in nowadays it uh helps in many things and um I mean I I've had a very full life I've always sometimes thinks that I should write a book but I don't see if I have the time to write the book because there's so many things to say but um I mean I certainly had a very interesting and changing life in many ways. I've had two husband uh the first one I got divorced but he passed away also and then had a wonderful life my second husband also enjoyed a lot of traveling and doing a lot of things and his composing of music living with this composing for many years and then Andalusia was a lovely country to live in also um I mean I can't really ask for more yeah and how many grandchildren I got eight grandchildren granddaughters all granddaughters um they play play golf uh some of them uh some of them a bit small but uh there's uh the the uh there's one that's about 21 that is uh in fact in Ireland at the moment she's in a university in Boston and she plays golf and uh some of them have played a bit of golf one is uh let's say uh interests me a lot because she's uh only nine but at least she's the only one who's asked me to give her lessons so that's rather fun and I give her a few lessons and uh it's just very very short but she's she's with great fun and I don't know we'll see she's only nine so she's got a lot of time to decide. Yeah so uh the others just uh have played a bit they've all sort all touched a golf uh golf club that's in fact some of them are very good horseback uh riding uh people my son is a very good horseback rider I got two daughters that are very low handicap so they they they play well I'm sure that uh if they'd not been frightened to be mommy's daughter uh they could have played perhaps very good also but uh didn't so but they have their own their own lives and uh they I'm very happy to have them for them.

Mike Gonzalez 28:19

Yeah. So Catherine um as you may know Bruce and I are famous for asking three final questions of our guests and I always defer to my partner. So Mr. Devlin you are on the T.

Bruce Devlin 28:36

Okay so Catherine you uh with the knowledge that you have today which is quite a few years after you started this uh game of golf but if you knew then what you know now what would you have done differently I don't think there's anything I'd have done differently very good that's the answer and you're not the first to have that as an answer I will say that.

Outro Music 29:08

So the second one uh I'm not sure we we know the answer to this one yet sometimes we know this by now but uh we're gonna give you one career mulligan one shot to do over where would you take it you mean about golf or about golf yeah golf one shot to do over that might have made a difference where would you take it difficult that I don't remember that's probably good yeah that's it's nothing's been haunting you for years like yeah if I could have only not three putted I would have won that tournament I don't think it happened I think I was lucky enough to be a very fighter and um when I had to make something or do something I did do it I love that and and you know when when Jack Nicholas answered that question he didn't say anything about one of his shots he talked about his opponent's shots yeah funny yeah all right so to wrap it up third question how would Catherine Laclosse like to be remembered I think I'd like to be remembered uh I'd say two things uh tried and help all the people that I could help and uh the wife of uh the great man who's been uh my husband the last twenty and some years um it's been a pleasure Catherine to have you with uh I know Mike and I look forward to uh having you with us today and we thank you for your time and uh thank you wish you the best of luck I enjoyed it very much very much remembering all the all the good things of my life and uh to telling them to the two nice people you are thank you well that's very nice of you and we appreciate you being on for the good of the game Catherine thank you very much thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game and please wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify if you like what you hear please subscribe spread the word and tell your friends until we tee it up again for the good of the game so long everybody as long as you're still in the stage you broke