Hal Sutton - Part 3 (The Majors)

Mike Gonzalez 0:15

Let's move on to your major championship performances. You mentioned uh at the outset, talk a little bit about the Masters, and uh you were right on the numbers. Sixteen starts, five cuts made, uh, one top ten, and and best finish was tenth in 2000. I think you you've already said that uh uh right or wrong, uh uh maybe perhaps you just weren't getting yourself in the right mindset at that golf course.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

You know, just didn't fit Hal Sutton, you know, and I actually never look forward to going to Augusta, and I'm sure that's a lot different than a lot of other people. You know, uh I bet Bruce can relate to what I'm talking about. Augusta is is a town that's not prepared for as many people as come to Augusta.

Bruce Devlin 0:56

That's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

It was difficult to even get when I played, and I'm sure it was the same way when you played, Bruce, it was difficult just to get inside the golf course.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

And the autographs that you signed before they changed the policy, you couldn't even concentrate. I mean, you didn't even want to walk from green to T. Every practice round was seven hours, it seemed like. And, you know, it just felt like you'd been in a war zone. And I just, you know, and then you top it off with the fastest greens you've ever seen, and uh mistakes were amplified uh because of the ball spinning. You know, I mean how many people stand in the middle of the fairway on fifteen after you've lined up and wonder if you can keep it out of the lake? I mean, and you know what I'm talking about, Bruce.

Bruce Devlin 1:50

I sure do.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

I mean, you're sitting there with a wedge in your hand and you're thinking, I I can hit this shot perfect, but is it gonna stay out of the water? You know, I miss it a foot and you miss it a foot and you're back in the water. With and then dead again.

Bruce Devlin 2:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

So anyway.

Mike Gonzalez 2:10

How you you had a chance to play about f uh was it five majors before you turned professional?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Uh I played a few. I played a several couple of U.S. opens and uh some British opens. I was low amateur in the British Open one year.

Mike Gonzalez 2:25

Yeah, you were you were low amateur at at Royal St. George's where they're going to have the uh the uh the open championship this summer as well, right? Uh uh T-47, that was in 1981, so that was probably still before you went through tour school, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

It was yeah, I was still amateur, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 2:42

Let's talk about the U.S. Open. Ten starts, four cuts made, uh one top ten, two top twenty-fives, with your best finish there. Sorry, this is this is uh uh this is I'm talking about the open championship here, was was uh T10 in 1989. There was a uh a fairly long stretch of time in your career where you where you didn't play in that event.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yeah, I just I never did really want to go overseas that much. I was not one of these globetrotters that went around the world. Just didn't go play.

Mike Gonzalez 3:14

So and how do you feel about that today? Is that still the right decision for you? You have any regrets that perhaps you didn't take a whack at a few more open championships?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Uh you know, probably of all of them, that one might have fit my game more than anywhere else just because I was a low ball hitter and uh I used the ground a little bit more than the other guys, but um I just didn't do it. I don't you know I made a lot of mistakes in my life and that might be one of them, you know, but no need second guessing it.

Mike Gonzalez 3:48

Well we asked Charlie Cootie that when we talked to him, and and Charlie, I think, had one good I think he played at one open championship. He had a top ten finish, and I think he won another tournament. Didn't he win at Burkdale uh another tournament, uh uh Bruce?

Bruce Devlin 4:02

I think he did win another tournament. Yeah, that wasn't the open though, was it? It was even he played one open.

Mike Gonzalez 4:08

Yeah, and and and so we asked him that question as well, and and he said, Yeah, you said Mike, he said, that is a regret because uh I I thought I could play those golf courses. It did suit my game. Of course, as you can imagine, how back then it it it cost them money, a lot of money and a lot of time, perhaps even missing some tournaments to even make that trip back then, and so it was a little different deal than it is today.

Bruce Devlin 4:32

A lot different.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Yeah. Yeah, well everything has changed, you know. I think uh winning tournaments, you know, one of the things that I think is hurting the tour today is not enough guys play to win. They're just playing to make money. And uh, you know, I think when there's less money involved and all you're gonna get is a victory, nobody fin remembers who finished second. You know, uh the only people that are remembered are the people that win. So I think if there was less money involved, people would be stepping on the gas more.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah, yeah.

Bruce Devlin 5:09

Talking about changes, what do you think about uh I know you've been a little little bit in the architectural business. I remember one that you had a great deal to do with what I think is absolutely marvelous down a boot ranch. Uh this game has, I mean, from a length standpoint, with everything that's happened with golf balls and equipment. Well, what are your feelings about the whole thing?

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Well, you know, I don't even know where to start. You know, I I think we look back and we all like it better in the era in which we played. You know, that's what we knew the best. I think the ball's going a long way right now. I watched these kids come in here, you know, and they got 120 miles an hour speed and they're flying at 320 yards. And, you know, when I was playing, 260 was the number that I had to fly at to carry most of the bunkers, and Bruce is shaking his head, yes, because he knows that's a number, you know. Uh, you know, if if you carried it 260 and it went 280 to 285, you were considered you were long ball, you were hitting it big. And that was the number we were trying to get to so that we could carry whatever was at the dog leg. And, you know, these kids are carrying their irons that far almost now.

Bruce Devlin 6:31

And ridiculous, really. Let's talk about the dog leg, and and I'll bring in the architectural side of it. When I first got involved in the architectural side of it was, you know, in the late 60s. Yeah. The first angle point was 240 yards. There you go. The last golf course that I built was 285 yards. And if you had to go to build one today, it'd have to be 310 yards. Wouldn't it? You think that's right or not? Well.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

It's probably it's probably right. I I I just can't relate to those kind of numbers. You know, if I ever hit if I ever hit one 300 yards, it was because it was downhill or downwind, or maybe both.

Bruce Devlin 7:23

Firm fairways.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah, it was not under uh, you know, uh normal conditions that Hal Sutt never hit one 300 yards.

Bruce Devlin 7:33

But Hal, you know, you listen to telecasts and they say, you know, the guy's 275 yards from the middle of the green and they take a three-wood and carry it to the front edge. I mean, it's astounding how far the more goes.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah. Uh and I don't know how they turn anything around like this. You know, I get asked the question all the time, do you think they'll ever roll it back? Rolling back is not really something that I foresee happening. I mean, if they could just stop it where it's at. Yeah, that'll that'll be an achievement. That would be an achievement, you know. I mean, I was on the tour, the board of the tour, a long time ago, whenever the uh Frank Thomas told us it couldn't go any further. And how wrong was that? You know, I mean, this was like in uh '98 or nine or something like that. Uh ball's gone so much further since then, and they thought they were on the outer limits of that. And manufacturers knew a lot more about that. Actually, the manufacturers have been dictating the future of the game for a lot longer than than they want anybody to know they have.

Bruce Devlin 8:40

And you know, your idol made a great comment, has to be close to 30 years ago, when he said, Man, the ball's gone too far. We need to we need to pull it back. And uh I I think he even I even I think he even suggested going to something like the what was the name of the ball? The I don't know Hawaii Hawaiian, I don't know. I I forget. There was a Cayman ball. There was a Cayman. That's what I was thinking. The Grand Cayman ball, that's right. Cayman ball.

Mike Gonzalez 9:11

Yeah.

Bruce Devlin 9:11

Nicholas Nicholas said a long time ago, ball's gone too far.

Mike Gonzalez 9:16

Yeah, he did. Is the sheer distance the ball is traveling a problem, or could that be fixed if it simply curved the way it used to?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Well, if the ball spun more, yeah, it would change the game. I mean, I can tell you the scariest shot, I mentioned it earlier. Uh throw a little wind into your face on 15 with that wedge in your hand. Yeah. I mean, that was one of the scariest shots in the game when you didn't know how far it was going to go and how much it was going to spin. Uh it was going to go the wrong direction you knew when it hit the ground. And uh that was scary. You know, and now these guys, I mean, one of the things that everybody works on really hard when you're getting your driver, you know, you want to spin it 2,000 RPMs or less at 13 degree launch. And, you know, we were spending it a lot more than that uh when we were playing.

Bruce Devlin 10:16

And you know, and it's interesting too because the solid ball is the one that changed the game. And I think they went from a heavier center to a more weighted exterior golf ball. And that's what produced the you know, the the quicker impact and the less spin on it. So can I ask you a question, Bruce? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

So what do you think in your whole time in the game of golf has changed golf more than anything else? Boy.

Bruce Devlin 10:54

That's a beauty. Uh I don't uh I I just think it's the golf ball. I mean, I know the clubs and all are technology, but the golf ball is is I've never seen a uh a thing change so much as a golf ball.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Well, I never saw anything change the game more than the Metalwoods did. Uh when the Metalwoods came along, the best drivers of the ball made all the money. And after the Metalwoods came along, everybody drove it good. So that changed the whole game. And, you know, it blocked the left side of the golf course out for most people. And, you know, I can tell you that right now that the best players in the world figured out early on in their career that they had to block one side of the golf course out. If they had to worry about both sides of the golf course, they couldn't play. And the Metalwoods did that to begin with. And then since then, uh that was the beginning of the technology that changed everything, and then since then the ball and everything else. And I wonder how many billions of dollars that has cost the consumer in in every way from uh you know renovating golf courses to try to make them more relevant. You know, the masterpieces that used to be so well thought of, and now we we're landlocked and we can't make them any longer to fit today's game.

Bruce Devlin 12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

I mean, you know, the police went to sleep. The USGA and the RNA went to sleep because they got afraid of litigation.

Bruce Devlin 12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

And they couldn't make rules that would protect the game because the manufacturers couldn't make money and and identify themselves as the leader by following those rules.

Bruce Devlin 12:52

That's another point we agree with.

Mike Gonzalez 12:55

Would you be an advocate for rules bifurcation? Just have the tour play a different ball or a different clubhead or something and leave the manufacturers doing what they're doing?

SPEAKER_01 13:03

You know what? That's really tough for me to answer because uh I think one of the things that has made golf unique is that you can get the things that the tour players are playing with, and you know, you can play right beside them. You can, you know, you couldn't shoot a free throw beside Michael Jordan. And uh you know, you can't throw a football next to Aaron Rodgers in a game, you know, or Patrick Mahomes. But um golf is unique in that you know you can do the same things that the tour players are doing with the same equipment. Good point. I think that's a very good point, Hal. So I think we need to try to stick to the same thing. Uh, you know, I made a point whenever I was on the board of the tour. I said, you know, to me, if you look at a roadmap of the future, Bruce will remember this name. Wally Uline was running Tidlist at the time.

Bruce Devlin 14:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

And they're they were the trendsetters. You know, whatever Wally you did, everybody else was chasing. And uh, you know, I I likened it in the board meeting. I said, let's just do a road map, and everybody, every manufacturer's in a car, and on the top of it it says Tideless, Calloway, Ping, everybody else. And I said, they take off, and Wally jumps into the lead, and if he takes a right, everybody else takes a right. And if he takes a left, everybody else takes a left. And I said, you know, the truth of the matter is he's trying to win the race no matter what he has to do, because he's got to report to American brands. At the time, that's who owned the Kushina company. And, you know, he had to report to them a certain amount of earnings that he had to make. And the Almighty Dollar was dictating everything that he did. And the beautiful part about golf is up until that point, the Almighty Dollar didn't dictate golf. You know, it was a game of rules that we loved. And all of a sudden it turned differently than that, and it's never turned back.

Bruce Devlin 15:09

Well, and the manufacturers today make a new model every six months.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Yeah.

Bruce Devlin 15:13

You know, I mean we used to, the old McGregor clubs that we used to buy off the guy outside the gate that uh sourced himself some McGregor woods that he'd be able to sell for$300 back then, even. Uh they never changed, they didn't change for years and years and years.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Yeah, we played the same driver for a long time until it broke or something else, you know. Yeah. He didn't change drivers all the time.

Mike Gonzalez 15:39

You know, we talked about a lot of changes to the game, Al, since you played, certainly uh Bruce, since you have, and and among those, we've talked about equipment, we've talked about uh the concept of team, we've talked a little bit about the mental approach. What are some of the other significant changes or differences uh that you see, Al, in the game compared to what you would have seen 40 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Oh, the agronomy. I mean, uh, you know, what we expect as a consumer now, just at your local club, you know, you want it to be in perfect shape all the time. And the amount of money that clubs are spending on their on their golf courses, you know, I mean, we're living in an entitled world. I mean, you know, I I call the uh Zorgia grass the entitlement grass or the grandfather grass. You know, every time you get to that ball, it's teed up perfectly. You know, that's you know, I didn't want my son to grow up on that kind of grass. I mean, you know, life is a bad lie. Life is not a perfect lie all the time. And, you know, if you and this is the way I played golf, you know, I expected something bad to happen. I just wanted to be prepared for what happened bad. I didn't want to expect to never have a bad lie. And that's the world we're living in today.

Bruce Devlin 16:59

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

Mike Gonzalez 17:01

It's changed the game, uh, certainly. Uh uh you think it's changed it for the better in terms of creating that high expectation amongst the consumers.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Uh that's a good question. I don't know. Uh I think it's hurt us as human beings to expect everything to be perfect. You know, I think uh and I can't I can't say that I would think it would be any different to us as golfers. And, you know, maybe if we didn't expect things to be so good all the time, and we we might be better prepared.

Mike Gonzalez 17:34

Let me take you back uh before we uh uh finish out your playing career. I think uh we certainly want to have our listeners hear from you about your PGA championship win back in 83 at Riviera. You talked a little bit about Riviera and your nose-to-nose with Tiger, those 36 holes, but uh in 1983, Howe shot 65, 66, 72, 71, 10 under at Riviera, leading wire to wire to beat uh a fellow that was a pretty good golfer.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yeah. Well, what led to that week was two weeks prior to that, I had a six-shot lead at Anheuser Bush at Kingsmill, and I didn't think anybody in the world could beat me if you give me six shots, and lo and behold, I beat myself like I talked Jack Nicholas told me he didn't do. And Calvin Pete beat me of all people. And I felt like life had you know cratered at that point. You know, I felt like it was on national TV, and uh I didn't want that to define me, so I went home and went to work on my golf game all week long. And I at the end of the week, my dad hadn't even planned to go with me. And I I said to my dad, I said, You need to go with me. I said, I'm gonna win this golf tournament. And I said, you know what? I said, I'm gonna I'm I I've got my game in shape. We're gonna win. And I was paired with Trevino and Lanny Watkins, which was a great pairing. And and you know, Lanny, I love him to death, but Lanny is high on Lanny, let me put it that way.

Bruce Devlin 19:08

What gave you the first clue?

SPEAKER_01 19:11

And and of course, Lee, I love Lee. Lee's one of my favorite people in the world in the golf, because you you didn't ever have to worry about where Lee was at, because he's gonna tell you exactly where he was at. And and I played unbelievable the first two days. I mean, just about as flawlessly as I could play. And I never will forget this. Landy was walking up there in front of us, and Lee says, Well, he said, I guess you put it on old Landy this week, like he ain't gonna forget anytime soon. That might have been the best part of the week right there. Yeah, but anyway, uh, you know, that was a fun week, and and I'll reminisce for a minute. I had that four-shot lead going into the 12th hole there, and I bogeied 12, 13, and 14. And for anybody that's ever been to Riviera, the crowd, 30,000 people up around the clubhouse on the ample theater, and they didn't have electronic scoreboards at that time. And every time Nicholas made a birdie, there was this loud roar, and every time I made a bogey, you'd hear, oh, and I mean, you it was no doubt about which direction everything was going. And I got to the 15th T, and the guy walking in the group said, It looks like it's a one-shot lead right now. And I told Freddie, I said, Give me that towel. I said, All of a sudden it's so hot out here, it's unbelievable. And I just sunk my head, I sat down and sunk my head into the towel, and I sat there with a little self-talk, which I know Bruce has done this himself, and said, Hal, do not let this define you. If you do this again, this is gonna define who you are as a player. And if I lost big leads back-to-back weeks, you know, that was gonna define me. And I pulled it together and somehow got in with four pars in a row, and actually four fairly easy pars. So uh, you know, self-talk's a big thing. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 21:16

Yeah. So I was gonna ask you whether that, you know, whether it entered your mind that week, uh your experience in Virginia two weeks prior, and how you dealt with it, and you you covered that for us pretty well. That it was that little talk with yourself.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, it was uh that was a high and low two-week period of time right there.

Mike Gonzalez 21:35

And uh this was also, I think, the first time a major offered a six-figure purse. So you you really figure in all these nice purse changes, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Well, I guess I did at the time. I won't figure in anymore. So there's been an eight-digit check since then, but I I didn't get it.

Mike Gonzalez 21:54

So you we talked a little bit about Ryder Cup early in the And uh uh of course you had uh you had a number of them. I think uh w wasn't there an early Ryder Cup in your career that you should have been on, but because of the rules of the PGA you just weren't qualified?

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Uh well in 83, you know, I I would have I won the PGA, would have been on that Ryder Cup team had uh, you know, I I wasn't a Class A pro. I hadn't played enough events to be a Class A pro. And that I guess they had never assumed that would happen. So they changed the rules after that, and John Daly was uh, you know, part of that chip rule change.

Mike Gonzalez 22:33

So you participated at uh at the Belfry in 85. That was your first one with Trevino as the captain.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Right. And then uh 87 Nicholas was a captain, then Crenshaw in 99, and then Curtis Strange in 2002. Four great players that I got to play for. That was pretty cool. Isn't that the truth?

Mike Gonzalez 22:53

How about it? What a great experience. Uh I remember Lanny talking about uh the highs and the lows. He he certainly reflects back fondly on the uh uh on the win. Might have been 83. Was that FG National?

SPEAKER_01 23:06

He hit the wedge, yeah, at the last hole.

Mike Gonzalez 23:08

Yeah, with Jack as the captain as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Yeah. Uh-huh.

Mike Gonzalez 23:11

And uh, but then going to his low, which was losing for Jack at Jack's place in 87.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 23:19

That one hurt the lose lose for Jack uh at Muirfield.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yes, it did. Uh you know, I played good in '87 there. I've, you know, I led uh in Ryder Cup points in 87 and 99 both. And, you know, just because you play well individually doesn't mean that you're gonna win as a team. And certainly uh losing with uh Jack being the captain wasn't fun.

Mike Gonzalez 23:49

Well, I don't know if these events are connected, but it was not too long after that that the PGA of America decided to uh make available captain's picks to the captain. Uh that hadn't been done up until uh 1987, and so they changed the rules and started that, I guess, in 89.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Well, I think that probably was a good thing, and if you notice they've had two captains picks for a while, now they have four captains picks, I think.

Mike Gonzalez 24:17

Yeah, tell us about your experience captaining the Ryder Cup in 2004 at Oakland Hills.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Uh next question, please. No. Uh you know, I don't, you know, it was a lot more fun to play for a team than it was to captain. Um, you know, Jackie Burke told me early on, he said, you know, uh how anything you do right, the credit will be given to the players, and anything you do wrong, you'll have to assume you'll assume full credit for it. And, you know, my dad begged me, uh, they asked me at Disney World to be the captain, and I, you know, I had the foresight to say I need to think about it, and I never will forget there was five of them in there, and they said, uh, what do you mean you need to think about it? And I said, Well, I gotta think about it. I'm only 46 years old and I'm still playing. And I said, you know, I need to think about it. That's exactly what I need to say. So I called home that night and told my dad. My dad said immediately, he said, turn it down. And I said, Well, what do you mean, turn it down? It's not that simple. I played all my life to get to this point, hoping that maybe one day I would get the opportunity to be recognized to do this, and now you're just simply saying, turn it down. And my dad said, Well, you'll you you you there's nothing to gain from it, Hal. And he said, There's only something to lose from it. And he said, and you know, he went on to say just exactly what uh Jackie said. You know, uh, if if everything goes as you hope, the credit is gonna go to the players. And if everything goes poorly, the captain made all the mistakes. And um, you know, I can't tell you that I mean er everything that we did was I did a lot of fun things while I was uh captain, you know. I spent the last year promoting the pro uh the product, which is the Ryder Cup. Um did some real fun things, but you know, I can't say that it was a whole lot of fun being there at the Ryder Cup. You know, I we had issues, you know. Phil switched clubs uh two weeks prior to that. Not only did he switch clubs, he switched balls. And he didn't call me and tell me that. He had his agent call me and tell me that. And, you know, Phil's mad at me because I won't tell him on Tuesday who he's playing with that week. And he's telling me that he's not even gonna play a practice round that week. He's gonna go over on the other golf course and figure out how far the ball goes. And then he tells everybody after it's over with that I didn't give him time to get used to Tiger's ball. So that ought to sum up to you, real quick, uh, how I felt about that week at the Ryder Cup. Uh how many shots did you hit that week, Al? Not a single one. And I can tell you, if I had, I wouldn't have hit it against the fence on 18 uh on the last haul. Yeah. Yeah, it's tough.

Mike Gonzalez 27:36

It it just seems to me from an outsider looking in that too much is made of the of the of the captain's role in terms of your influence on the outcome. It's an important and probably very intense two years out of your life to prepare for it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Well, you know, I think both of y'all can probably relate to this. The older I get, the smarter my dad was.

Bruce Devlin 28:00

Isn't that the truth?

SPEAKER_01 28:02

And, you know, I was too young to do it. And uh I was still a decent player at the time, you know, and and I should have been playing golf. I should have been thinking about making the team myself. And, you know, it just I look back at it, you know, I I know I knew that Phil and Tiger weren't the best of friends. But uh Nicholas and Palmer and Tom Watson weren't the best of friends either. And they were 13-1 against each other when they played as team. 13-1, I think. 12-1 or 13-1. So, you know, they became better friends because of all of that. And let me tell you, anytime I've been to war, I I never, everybody I played in a Ryder Cup match with, I was better friends with them after I left than I was before. And I thought to my, I mean, Jackie Burke, I'll never forget this. He and I argued about it. And I said, Jackie, I said, I believe that we should put them together, and here's the reason why I believe we should. If they become friends, golf wins whether they win or lose this week. And I said, I want golf to win this week. I don't know whether the Europeans should win or the Americans should win. Golf should win. And, you know, I guess I was just ahead of my time. A few years later, they paid them$10 million to play with each other.

Mike Gonzalez 29:36

Let me ask you this. Uh you know, relating to Ryder Cup or that kind of a team competition, if you had Europe or U.S. and on paper they were the same. Okay? The mix of rankings players, they're identical. What team do you pick to win?

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Well if history has anything to do with it, you're gonna pick the Europeans of late. So you know, I don't I don't know. You know, one of the things I touched on this a little bit earlier, you know, where life is not a perfect lie, it's a bad lie. Uh the lens that the Europeans are looking out of are is that lens. The lens that the Americans have been looking out of is is a is a perfect lie. Would you agree with that, Bruce?

Bruce Devlin 30:35

Absolutely agree with you a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

And, you know, I'm not knocking anybody by saying that. I mean, it's just it's just factual, basically. You know, we we we have it so good in America as far as golf is concerned, that that's the only lens you would look out of. You know, when I played that little nine-hole golf course that we talked about that had two bunkers on it and only a range that had a 125 yards on it, it was anything but perfect, and that's the lens I was looking out of. I didn't expect perfection. I figured out a way to do it without perfection. And now, you know, the kids that I teach in here because of the cameras and the track man and everything else, they all want to know how pretty it is. And I I mean, I don't care about how pretty it is, I just want to get it in the hole. Yeah. And you know, that that's the way we played golf, wasn't it, Bruce? Absolutely. That's that was it.

Mike Gonzalez 31:37

Let me shift gears a little bit uh and give you one career mulligan. Where would you take it?

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Uh well. That's that's hard to say there, you know. You're talking about one particular shot or one particular day, or what are you talking about?

Mike Gonzalez 32:05

Yeah, let's just talk one shot.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

One shot. Well, I don't know that I had one shot that uh changed the direction I was going more than than uh one day. I there's several days I could go. Well, I'll tell you, uh the one shot I'd like to have the T-shot back uh I think it was on 14 at Shinnecock when I was in the, you know, it was 86. I'm in the last group, and had the lead at the time of the U.S. Open at Shinnecock, and I drove it right on the hole and drove it in, you know. If you know anything about Shinnecock, there's not a lot of trees on Shinnecock, but uh there was a dead limb there, and I drove it in the V of the lint the the limbs, and I had to, you know, chip it back out in the fairway and end up making bogey and one more bogey and Raymond ended up winning. And uh I'd like to have that T-shot back. Maybe I wouldn't have hit it in the V of that outcome might have been different.

Bruce Devlin 33:07

It's always a very difficult question. Everybody that got asked that question, Hal, thinks this, you know, I mean, what just one shot is uh it's it's it's hard to define it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 33:18

It is, it is one shot. Um I'm not sure one shot changed anything. One shot changed it for the better. I'm not sure one shot changed it for the worse. Now, I'm sure there are people that have had those that one shot made a big difference. I just don't recall it.

Mike Gonzalez 33:36

It's it's quite vivid for some people, which which tells me they've probably thought about that shot a lot in their life. Yeah.

Bruce Devlin 33:44

Are you alluding to me, sir? Are you alluding to my second shot at the 11th hole at Augusta? Is that what you're trying to say to everybody?

Mike Gonzalez 33:54

It was a perfect shot in the air with the lead at the Masters on a Saturday, wasn't it?

Bruce Devlin 33:59

Yeah. Three shot lead going to 11. I hit what I thought was a perfect shot. Uh-uh. Didn't carry the three yards, carried it three yards too short, and it wiggled into the lake, and I shook hands with an eight, which wasn't very good.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

How quickly that can happen at Augusta, too. Oh boy.

Bruce Devlin 34:18

Isn't that the truth?

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Yes, it I I think it can happen quicker there than anywhere else, actually.

Bruce Devlin 34:24

Yeah. You got you got actually four perfect holes too. Well, actually five holes. We we saw somebody uh make a mess of it this year too, at the 16th hole. Yeah. Putting it in the water, you know? Yeah, yeah.

unknown 34:36

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 34:37

Al, let me ask you this. If if you knew when you turned professional what you know now, what would you have done differently?

SPEAKER_01 34:48

That's a good question, too. Uh I'll tell you real quick what I'd have done differently. Uh I wouldn't have made golf my God. Uh God would have been my God. And, you know, that's a tough admission to make right there, but I I uh I put everything into my golf game and it cost me a lot of things. And uh, you know, we're told not to do that, and I think many, many people on earth have done that, and uh it took age and and mistakes and all the things that have happened to me for me to really realize that. And uh I think the journey would have been uh I don't know if it'd have been any better or any worse. I we'll never know about that, but I'd have been at peace with it a lot more if I if uh if I'd have put God first.

Mike Gonzalez 35:48

How would you like to be remembered as a golfer?

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Uh probably as I am gonna be remembered. I was a fighter, you know. I you know, I had flaws in my golf swing and I had uh you know, my short game wasn't uh I was a pretty darn good putter. I never I didn't make a lot of long putts, but I I certainly didn't miss any short putts that uh I look back on and wasn't proud of. But uh, you know, I was I was a fighter. I kept my nose to the grindstone and didn't quit. My dad taught me to never quit. You know, I had a couple of years there in early 90s that I, you know, I couldn't drive it in a 10-acre field. And um, you know, I'll never forget sitting in a Las Vegas parking lot and I had played in 26 tournaments and made the cut in only seven and made like$100,000, maybe even less. I don't even recall what I made, but not enough to keep my card. And my dad said, Why don't you go back to the tour? And I said, Nah, a tour school. And I said, I'm not going back to the tour school. I said, I'm gonna use my one-time exemption of the top 25 money earners, and uh I'll play next year on that. And he said, Well, what if you don't make it next year? I said, Well, then I'll look for another job. I said, you know, if I'd rededicate myself, there's no way I'm not gonna make it. And uh, you know, I was never afraid to put myself to that sort of test.

Bruce Devlin 37:13

And uh That's why you were successful?

SPEAKER_01 37:18

You know, I I was never afraid to say, okay, it's this or or nothing. And, you know, when I got in a chance to win, you know, you mentioned the playoffs, you know, I realized where I was at and I put my foot on the accelerator. And, you know, I knew that if I finished second, nobody was going to remember that. Uh, you know, I had Brandel Chambly on on our podcast, and he was telling me about the one time he won out there, and he gave me uh unbelievable details of it. So I followed that question up. I said, okay, Brandon, how many times did you finish second? He said, I don't really remember. He said, you know, four or five times or something like that. And I said, That you just made my point for me. Nobody remembers. You just recited great details of when you won, and you couldn't even remember how many times you finished second. And you did it. So what do you think the world thinks?

Mike Gonzalez 38:10

Well, you know, when you use your exemption to come back on, uh there are not a lot of people that are able to rekindle that fire in their belly, and you somehow managed to do that.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Well, I I can't give you any real reason for that, other than I uh, you know, I've operated well when my back was against the wall most of my life. Uh you know, I you know, I one of the we were at Belfry. I'll never forget this, the first time I ever played in the Ryder Cup. And, you know, uh Trevino paired me with uh Craig Stadler. And I'd never even played. I'd played the tour for three years and never played a round of golf with Craig Stadler. So neither had he played with Hal Sutton if I hadn't played with him. So we didn't know anything about each other's game. Nothing. And so we were paired in foursoms uh against Sevy and uh Panero. And uh anyway, long story short, I'm driving against Sevy, and he's driving against Panero, and we get to the ninth hole, and we're four down, we end up birdieing number nine to go to three down. And we're walking over to the 10th T, and here he is telling me to lay up. I said, I ain't laying up. If you don't know the hole, it's a par four that you can drive, but it's over water.

Bruce Devlin 39:31

Yeah. Yeah, a little creek running along it.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Yeah, there's a creek running along there, and he said, I want you to lay up. And I said, I ain't laying up. I said, Sevy ain't laying up, and we're three down. There ain't no way I'm laying up. And so Stadler says, No, I said lay it up. I said, I don't care what you say, I'm not laying it up. And so I walked back to that T and hit driver and shaved the paint off the pen as it went by. And, you know, that's kind of the way I played golf. You know, I wasn't gonna just because Joe Schmo thought that it should be done this way, you know, I had to believe in my commitment on what I had decided. And uh, you know, that's kind of the way I played golf.

Mike Gonzalez 40:16

Well, if people look back on the body of work of Hal Sutton, uh starting with USAM and the amateur record that you posted, 14 tour wins, two players championships, one tour championship, one PGA championship, writer cup veteran and captain. Uh, you put that all together, and uh in my mind, you are absolutely a bona fide World Golf Hall of Fame candidate, and I hope that happens for you someday.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Well, I appreciate you saying that, Michael. Uh, you know, whether that happens or not, you know, uh I put together the best career I could. I was trying all the time. Bruce understands what I mean by that. You know, there's there might have looked like times that we weren't trying out there, but I can tell you we all cared about it enough that, you know, we were we were trying.

Bruce Devlin 41:09

And uh I think I can answer the question for him, though. Hal Sutton's gonna be in the Hall of Fame. He deserves to be there. And it and it was, I gotta tell you, it was our pleasure, Hal. Having you on this podcast today was just one of the nicest things that have happened to us doing this, and we thank you so much for it.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

You've been great. Well, I appreciate that, Bruce. I've enjoyed this. You know, we've being able to walk down memory lane is uh fun to do with friends, and I certainly consider you a friend, Bruce, and and getting to know you, Michael, I feel the same way.

Mike Gonzalez 41:52

So well, we really appreciate you being with us. Thanks, Al. Thank you. Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends. Until we teat up again for the good of the game, so long, everybody.