Ian Baker-Finch - Part 4 (Captaining the Aussies at the Olympic Games)

Mike Gonzalez 0:15

So you can tell us whether you think this might be an interesting series of podcasts, but Bruce and I have talked about this a little bit, and that's uh having one or more uh uh shows just dedicated to this issue because it's come up with every one of our guests, and the thought was that we might have uh a group of professionals given their perspective, and then have a group of manufacturers give their perspective, then get the two chief scientists and the RNA and the uh and the USG whose names escape me, who are into the bowels of the technicalities, help us just sort of frame up the issues, right? What problem are you trying to solve? What are some of the potential solutions that you're considering, and give us the pros and cons of all that? And then bring in the administrators, you know, uh the guy running the the USGA and the RNA and say, okay, here's our understanding of the issues, here's what you guys are looking at. Uh where do you think this is heading?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

I think that'll be very interesting. You'd have a you'd have a great cross-section of uh interested listeners, that's for sure.

Mike Gonzalez 1:19

Yeah, yeah. Well, this is not going to go away and it's been brewing for for a long, long time. Just ask Jack Nicholas. Yeah.

Bruce Devlin 1:28

Yeah, really. He's been he's been uh railing for uh effect of the golf ball now for about 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

You know, and just a little button on all of that. A lot of it really started in the 80s when uh golf course developers um trying to sell houses decided that uh you know, maybe if there was another 50 yards of ground back there for a back tee, we could sell five or six more housing lots back there. You know, so par four started to become 460, 475 or whatever. And anyway, I think that was a big big part of the problem, not just uh the manufacturers or or the administrators, but um you know, there was uh a big part of that with with golf course architecture and and development.

Bruce Devlin 2:21

Talking about architecture, I know you've got uh a great interest in it. I w I just want to leave something off for you to for to to take off on. When I first got involved in it, which was back in the 60s, our first angle point for a driver, before like a dog leg right par four, it was 240 yards. Yep. Uh and and and rightfully so, what you try to do is you try to build, you know, 18 par threes so that you're playing different shots, whether it be second shot at first shot at a par three, second shot at a four, or third shot at a five. So today, if you went out to build a golf course, what would your angle point be for the drive? Three hundred. Three hundred. So that's how much that's really how much the game has changed. It's sixty yards at a minimum uh for your first angle point.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

And you really do if if you're doing cart paths and uh designing the course for the scratch player, the professional player, say from 7,000 yards to 7,200 yards, your gold T, if you will, your cart paths and your walking paths and whatever go to there. And then if you have the land, you then have a black T 50 yards back for the young bucks and the and the tour players that can hit at 320. But most of the you don't you can't design it back there at 7,700. That has to be in addition, that that extra 10% that you need for a tournament or for a uh the tour players or or the young college players. They actually the guys in the Cornferry tour probably average longer than the guys on the main tour, the the young guys coming through. So it's it's made it very, very difficult with how you design the courses, but even from that 70-100-yard T, if you will, it's still at 300 those turning points. Yeah. And um, you know, you don't I don't you don't design the cart paths around the black tee anymore. That's that's like an addition back there that only 1% of your players will ever use.

Mike Gonzalez 4:35

So you you've done a little golf course design in your career. Are you still active with that?

SPEAKER_01 4:40

I'd like to do more, but my I don't have a big enough name to win the the deals. Um, I'm sure Bruce understands that as the more and more Jack Nicholas, uh at the time, Arnold, obviously, Gary Player, uh, Greg Norman does a good job, gets a lot of work. Uh the non-playing architects like Tom Fazio, um now Gil Hunts, they're they're the ones that everyone wants. They're famous in that golf course architecture business, and it's hard to win um a contract against them, I've I've found. So as much as I was trying to do it up until about 10 years ago, the last 10 years it's been sporadic. It's been uh like on a on an assistance type of uh format rather than just going out to all of the shows trying to win the contracts. It's just too hard to beat the big money and the big names. And um as much as I love it, if I had to give up everything in golf, Bruce, to take one angle and I knew I could get the work, it'd be golf course design. It's it's like raising a baby, isn't it? It's just you just nurture it. It's a lot of work.

Bruce Devlin 5:47

It's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Good fun, though. And and you've done some great golf courses, some at home and some here. I love uh up there in the Carolinas, you got your little baby up there that's just spectacular.

Mike Gonzalez 5:59

Yeah, we're getting ready to open again on September the 17th. We've been shut down for three months, so we're eager to get back at it.

Bruce Devlin 6:07

Well, and you might be interested in this, Finchie. You'll get a kick out of it, I think. Uh you know that m Mr. Gonzalez was what I all always call our president of the club down there, the benevolent dictator. Uh I have an arrangement with secession where nothing can get done to the golf course unless they get my approval for it. So when uh when when Mike uh retired, the new uh president said, you know, you're getting you're getting along in age, you know. Uh is there anything that you want to do to the golf course, you know, be before you pass them, before we dump you on the off the third T. And it was very interesting because we get back to the very subject that we just left a minute ago, you know, length of golf course. I don't think I don't think you need to do anything more. It's like you said, yeah, we can't build a black tee back there because you'd be 40 yards in the marsh and you can't do that. So uh we just leave it the way it is. Good. That's the way it should be.

Mike Gonzalez 7:23

And now that I'm out of the role, Bruce has a spy here, so nothing happens without him knowing about it. Every little new pile of dirt that pops up, a little new mound, he hears about it. So uh let's talk about the Olympics. How did that all come up, uh, you being the coach for the Australian team this year?

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Uh I was asked three years ago to to relive the role I had uh done in 2016 in Rio. And that was a great honor to come back the first time in the in the modern Olympics to have golf back in as a sport back in 16. Unfortunately, it was Rio, which wasn't really a golfing meca. Um they did build a wonderful golf course. Gil Hartz and his team did a unbelievable golf course down there. That was good fun and really enjoyed it. And I guess they did a good enough job that all of the golfing bodies back home in Australia, the ladies and the men and the pros and the amateurs, whatever, they all asked me to do it again. Um I suggested that uh they get Kari Webb to do the uh the women's side and me to do the men's side. And uh Kari was still really three years ago a chance of making that team, you know, still playing well. She's a hell of a player icon in Australia, obviously in the world of golf. And um she's going to do it. I shouldn't really let the cat out of the bag, but she's actually going to do it for both the men and the women in Paris in 2024. So I did it for both the men and the women again, uh, this time in in Japan. Japan's a golfing, they're golf crazy there. It's a great, it's a great golfing country. It was unfortunate we couldn't have fans because of the COVID. But it really was uh an honor to be selected to do it and to be a part of the team. And uh, hey, there's nothing I can do. I was like the architect of the environment, if you will. Make sure that everything that can be done for them to play at their best, that was done. I had um most of the work was done by a couple of guys and uh a young lady back in Australia, Brad James, Matt Cutler, Stacey Peters. They were um they did all of the the work, the administrative stuff back from Australia and Gulf Australia. And um I just went over there as the as the captain and the the team leader, the bus driver, the the beer cooler, the whatever it was that needed to be done. That's that's what I did. But it was honestly, it was uh I'd do it all again the same. I just absolutely loved it.

Mike Gonzalez 10:05

So were you there from start to finish as far as opening ceremony, closing ceremony, or or close?

SPEAKER_01 10:11

The little insight, the opening ceremony was different this time, obviously, because of who was allowed to attend. But as the team leader, um I would only walk in the opening ceremony or closing ceremony if my team uh wanted to do that. I didn't really want them getting in days or weeks early to do the opening ceremony and staying later for the closing ceremony. I wanted them to come in, treat it like a major, get there on the Monday morning or the Sunday night, treat it like a major, try and win it like you would a major golf tournament, and and not really elongate that time spent, and and especially this time with COVID. So we didn't walk either time, Rio or um Tokyo, we didn't walk in the opening or closing ceremonies. We were there for the golf, we were there to perform at our best. Um we watched the opening and closing and and afterwards the closing ceremony on uh TV when I got back to the States on tape. But uh we were there, we were there for the golf. We're there to win uh a medal for our country and and do the best we could. Both the men and women did great. Actually, Cam Smith, had he birdied the last, would have won bronze outright.

Bruce Devlin 11:27

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Uh had he hard, he would have been in that bronze um playoff. I think it was a six-man, seven might have been seven-man playoff. What a playoff. Yeah, he would have been eight. Uh he bogeied, unfortunately, going for the birdie, hit it past the pin and three putted. And then Hannah Green, the same. Had Hannah Birdied the last hole, the 72nd hole, she would have been in the silver medal playoff. And uh she went for birdie, good honor, but unfortunately bogeyed and and missed a medal by a shot. So both, you know, both weeks we had a chance.

Mike Gonzalez 12:02

Yeah. So it's it's too bad that the timing doesn't work out where you're able to participate in one of those opening or closing ceremonies, but you're right, it uh it probably affects a lot of athletes where they'd have to come in way early or stay way late just to participate.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Hmm. And yeah, you to me it was a hard one to suggest that they don't do it because I'm sure everyone wants to go feel that Olympic experience. And I probably had uh some negativity uh from others involved in the Olympic movement for my attitude towards it in saying suggesting that my team not do it, that they come in and be ready for the golf. But I felt that that was the best advice from uh from everyone's um uh perspective to to come in and be ready to go, be ready to play. You know what the the women would have had to have come in to Rio or Tokyo 11 days early to participate in the opening ceremony. Well, no, that'd be silly. So anyway, uh you could still experience it. We experienced the spirit. Tell you what we did. We had uh we booked the hotel rooms three years ago. So we had enough hotel rooms, we had a couple of coaches, uh our Golf Australia people, myself, the two caddies, the two players in the hotel, and we we booked a spare room that we took all of the furniture out except one of the beds, and we got a whole bunch of pillows and cushions around and a projector. And one of the guys from Golf Australia uh brought over um on his computer channel seven from Australia, channel seven plus or what it was called, seven plus. And each night we would play that on the projector on the wall of the hotel room. Yeah, so we all sat around the wall and on the bed and whatever, had a couple of cold beers and watched the Australian Olympic telecast, what people were watching in Australia. And it was the greatest fun, mate. We had so much fun telling stories, remembering old times. Um, and then the same when the guys had gone, we did the same thing with the women's team and uh young Minji and Hannah just had an absolute blast. Yeah, I'm sure. But it was just very, very, very Australian, really, really uh a memorable week for all of us. I'm sure you could ask all of them when you get the chance to have them on the show. Yeah, that'd be great.

Mike Gonzalez 14:19

Yeah, I think we saw a few uh few pictures on social media of your gang probably sitting on the pillows and and and watching. There were there were a few pictures posted. Uh sounds like great fun. And Australia had a great uh Olympics.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yes, yeah. You know, uh pound for pound, we always um uh you know win the medal count based on population. Obviously, we can't compete with the USA and China, and I think England were in front of us.

Bruce Devlin 14:44

Yeah, they were.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

But for 20 million people, we we always do pretty well. And it's such a proud nation for sport, Australia. Really, really, really uh a proud sporting nation.

Mike Gonzalez 14:56

Yeah, yeah, great experience. Um general questions. Uh let me give you one career mulligan. Where do you take it?

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Oh it it would have to be. I had a three-shot lead at the Australian Open in 1986 with uh with two holes to play at Metropolitan. Roger Davis won. I finished second. I finished second in the Aussie Open three times. And uh I just somehow had a brain cramp on 17 and made triple and uh and lost. I think if I'd had that mulligan now, I'd hit uh I'd hit a three wood off the T there, and I certainly wouldn't three putt. I'd uh I'd like to have the Australian Open on my resume. It's the only big one in Australia I didn't win. So that'd be my mulligan.

Mike Gonzalez 15:50

Yeah, that's a good one. And you didn't have to think long to come up with that one either.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Well, as Bruce knows, as an Australian Open champion, um Bruce knows it's a pretty special one. Sure is as I said, I won won all the other big ones, um, but that one, and and three times second, but that that one time I really should have won. I was playing great. Uh Tomo was helping me out at the time, helping me with my swing, and I was swinging beautifully, and I just had a brain cramp and and lost it.

Mike Gonzalez 16:21

Yeah. Um, if you knew at age 20 what you know today, what would you have done differently?

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Oh boy. I certainly wouldn't have gone through the trouble I did with my driver because I'd know now not to do it, and it's advice I've given to a lot of other young guys. And uh even on TV with Jordan Speeth, I said it a number of times. Just stick with what you're doing, don't change a thing. Stay keep your caddy, keep your coach, keep your girlfriend or wife, you know, whatever it is that you've been doing to get to a certain level. Don't change a thing. And we all go changing things because we want to get better. If you're not going forwards, you're going backwards. You know, all of the old, you know, great analogies to to uh our our game. But I I went searching and that screwed me up, and I wouldn't do it now. I would uh I'd probably spend more time in the gym knowing that the game became more about speed than it did about accuracy and touch. I used to spend a couple of hours every day of my life chipping and putting. I probably spent a couple of hours extra in the gym working on my speed, which is what they all do now.

Mike Gonzalez 17:39

Let me take you through your golf bag. Uh let's just start with driver and let's go let's go in your prime, okay? Uh certainly pre-9495. Uh tell us about your driver. How would you rate your driving? And then tell us who you think the finest driver of the golf ball was you ever saw.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Oh, well, best best driver of the ball when I was playing was Greg Norman. Uh I was a very good driver. I was top ten in driving accuracy, but I was a hundredth in driving distance, so my driving was good. I'd be I'd be a strokes gained driver in my prime, although I wasn't as long as I think I needed to be to be a a multiple major winner.

Mike Gonzalez 18:24

Fairway wood.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Fairway Wood, I was uh I was good, I was accurate, I was I had just the distance control. You know, I was 230 in the air with a three wood, probably two twenty with a four wood. I had used to carry both. The best fairway wood players, I thought Tom Kite was pretty good with Fairway Woods. He was uh uh you know, I'm thinking about that era of the 80s and 90s.

unknown 18:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah, before pre pre-Tiger, because the best at all of them after Tiger was Tiger. So let's go pre-Tiger.

Mike Gonzalez 19:04

What about long irons?

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Jack Nicholas. Jack Nicholas, Greg Norman, uh high, long, um, a lot of a lot of power. Yeah. The guys that could hit it high and long, I thought, were the best.

Mike Gonzalez 19:18

And how would you rate your long iron game?

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Uh once again, I wasn't I was good at with all of my irons and stuff because I was so straight, but I wasn't you know, two iron was um 205 yards in the air. Wasn't like now where they'd hit it to sixty. Um yeah, I would I would say I was just average.

Mike Gonzalez 19:43

Yeah, let's go up to mid irons, uh six iron five iron.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Hmm. Who would have been the best at mid-irons?

Bruce Devlin 19:58

It's always a tough one to pick, I think.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah, yeah, exactly, because it's you know that hundred and hundred and fifty to two hundred yards, you're sort of looking at 140 to 200. Um once again, uh Tom Watson was pretty good iron player, I th I thought. And uh Tom Kite always, and um Curtis, Faldo. Yeah, the guys that were that could control their distances. Johnny Miller, but he was you know, I'm sort of going back a little bit for Johnny, but yeah, he was he was pretty good. And I was I was average, I was very straight with my irons, good iron player.

Mike Gonzalez 20:42

How about uh wedge play?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Wedge play, you gotta go uh Corey Paven, Tom Kite, Sevi. Imagine imagination. I'm going Sevy, but then I'd I'd probably when you get to bunkers, I'm gonna go Sevy, Balasteros, and Gary player. I I didn't play a lot with Gary, he's that much older than me, but Sevi probably with bunkers. And I'm I'm a very good bunker player, still am. Um I would say I'm top ten uh bunker player of my whole life and and pitching. But those guys were I would look to them.

Mike Gonzalez 21:16

Didn't you have a Norman von Neyder bunker lesson at all?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

I did not, but I we all had those all of the guys that were taught by Von Neyder, then taught the next group, then taught the next group. And don't you think, Bruce, the Aussies have always been very good bunker players because of Fabulous. They've all been good bunker players, yeah. And I think the South Africans, too, because of Gary. Gary may not have taught Louis Wustays and how to hit a bunker shot, but Gary taught, you know, all of the guys along the way. And uh and Norman Norman had a big influence on him as well.

Mike Gonzalez 21:52

Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

I'm sure. And so did the um Arthur Lees from Sunningdale in England. Yes. was another one that was uh Norman von Neider's age and and uh abilities back in England. Do you remember Arthur, the head pro at Sunningdale? Oh yeah, I remember him well. Yeah, he was uh someone that was a great coach as well. And I think over here um Claude Harmon was one of the American great American coaches, you know, Butcher's dad uh and and bunker player. Yeah what about pitcher uh pitching or or chipping yeah oh well I kind of went there didn't I chipping Raymond Raymond Floyd yeah Floyd was awesome best chipper in the world how was Trevino he'd yeah Trevino was great imagination kind of unusual shots but Raymond you'd he'd be six inches off the green he'd never take the putter out he'd chip it he was awesome yeah and putter yeah putter uh boy hard to go past Jack um Arnold was pretty good too Arnold I I didn't play a lot with Arnold in his prime I didn't really see him when he was putting at his best he was a bit older but yeah the the guys that win multiple majors I think you've got to put down as the best putters because they get it done under pressure.

Mike Gonzalez 23:22

How about Dave Stockton anywhere around the green? Yeah Dave Stockton with was brilliant in his own style but uh and he proved it went into the into the champions tour Bruce and putted great yeah and speeth speeth now yeah well then you skipped over tiger well I I left tiger out because tiger was the best at everything honestly if you in every one of those categories I'm going tiger yeah you could for sure we could for sure who's in your dream force them who's you and three other three other players who loving or or or not with us who would you play with I well you I've got to go with the big three they were the they were the guys that got me involved in the game and why I've had such a great life in golf yeah you know Jack Jack Gary and Arnold that's pretty good Teresa there's a lot of guys my age that would have to have to thank them. What's on your list that you still want to play there's probably a lot of great courses around the world that maybe you haven't had an opportunity to play what are what's your short list um there there's a lot a lot of new courses that I haven't had a chance to play obviously but I've played probably 200 of the world's 250 of that's my love of passion I go everywhere to play.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

I'm going up to Banff in a couple of weeks' time to play a couple of lovely courses up there in in mid-September um I haven't been to uh Brookline the country club I haven't played that I've I'm gonna try and play that sometime that's an open venue I haven't played history there yeah you'll enjoy that you'll enjoy it um how about in the UK what what are you missing in England? Let's just focus on a country uh anywhere in England that you need to get to I have I've I've been told Ganton is a great course that I haven't had a chance to play. I've played all of the great courses around Sunningdale I'd uh a couple of years ago I went and spent ten days and played all of them um in the north any in England I haven't played that I no in Scotland uh I'd say I haven't played NAN I've heard NAN is really nice I've been up to Inverness and played up there I haven't didn't play NAN uh I've played them all in Ireland I has one in Ireland I haven't played the Island Club in Dublin I've heard that's Clarke he told me that's really special the Island club I'm going over there uh at the end of the month I'm gonna play uh trlis and uh Hogshead played Hogshead Hog's head yeah that's a fairly new one you haven't played Hogshead old head I have the one on the on the island that's that's a great place to take your camera the course isn't great but it's a it's a beautiful spot. Yeah there's some wonderful golf island's so friendly too I love love going there. Good good fun.

Mike Gonzalez 26:15

Yeah covet's just kind of put a little kink in the works here this year trying to get get over there. I know Bruce is heading over there uh early October we're we're heading over in 10 days so we'll be a little bit in Ayrshire and a little bit in London and you know down down Sussex um actually going to play five open rota courses this trip. Oh nice yeah good stuff uh which ones well uh three of which are no longer and so up in Scotland up in Scotland Prestwick which was the first obviously and then uh and then we're gonna play Turnbury which I haven't played since they fixed it up and then down in uh in Kent of course you know those three courses right there together you got Prince's uh which hosted it many many years ago at this as did uh Royal Sinkport's deal and then Royal St. George's beautiful take uh take the channel over to Paris while you're there if you haven't done it that's a great experience it's only three hours in the train we've into Paris I've taken my taken my rental car through the channel years and years ago. Oh it's kind of weird right because you you rent the car and you're driving on the the correct side of the road to for for an American in France and you come out of the tunnel and whoa what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Whoa I know that's really weird we we took the train instead of a car there. But yeah that oh that's a great trip. That's good fun.

Mike Gonzalez 27:33

Yeah yeah it's uh we've got uh I think we're there uh 11 days play golf every day and should be a should be a good time so get make sure you get a massage every three or four days to allow you to keep going for 11 days straight. That's people don't realize do they Bruce you bloody walk every day on that hard ground that is a great trip uh tip and and that's what we do every four days or so because you know there'll be some 36 days sprinkled in there and that's about the only way you're gonna make it yeah yeah it's good on you it's it's tough sledding.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Um any superstitions any special numbers you played weighed you things you carry in your pocket way ways you marked your ball any any of that I always used my fours the balls used to come in a dozen and in the old days they were numbered one to twelve but in modern times they were a sleeve of ones twos threes and fours I always used the fours in practice rounds and I used ones twos and threes in the tournament and I always tried to use ones on the last day because I wanted to finish first I used to mark it with a pencil two dots underneath the number uh I used a 1967 10 cent piece for years and years as as my marker um I felt 67 wasn't asking for too much but it was a pretty good score to shoot each day so that was my goal.

Bruce Devlin 29:01

That's great. I love it.

Mike Gonzalez 29:03

And you know some some guys would refuse to call those superstitions superstitions uh more like uh just uh routines yeah I think so uh John Cook told me once he had four white T's and and one marker in his right pocket and that's and that's what he always had that that was his uh deal.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Um some people have a special marker or a or a memorable marker for for whatever reason. Yeah but we're we're all a little bit on the spectrum I think when when we come to professional golf we're all very you know we're we're on that line all the time of um you know uh everything has to be perfect. Type A is what I mean when I say that it's like we're all very very um conscious of routine and you know iron our shirts correctly each time arrive at the course the same time you know it's it's a it's a precision sport. Well Ian thank you very much for your time today you've been so generous to Bruce and I with your time both our first visit and this visit uh we've covered a lot of ground with your career of course there's a lot of great things to talk about which we did and uh we sure appreciate uh you being with us I've loved being with you every minute guys thank you so much I just want to add that uh we haven't seen the last of you Finchy we get a chance we get a chance to watch you on CBS television and uh you've had a wonderful career there and like Mike said we really appreciate you coming and talking with us it's been a lot of fun Bruce always great to be with you mate you're a great role model for all us all us uh young Australians coming through in the 70s we watched you with uh great interest and and joy and uh wish you and the family all the very best at uh keep doing what you're doing your show's great a lot of a lot of uh loyal followers thanks Ian thanks a lot guys thank you for listening to another episode of for the good of the game and please wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify if you like what you hear please subscribe spread the word tell your friends until we tee it up again for the good of the game so long everybody