Peter Dawson - Part 1 (The Early Years)

Mike Gonzalez 0:15

Welcome to another edition of FORE the Good of the Game and Bruce Devlin. The gentleman we have this morning uh first of all had one of the greatest jobs in golf, and secondly was privileged enough for several years to be able to utter some of the most famous words in golf. That's right.

Bruce Devlin 0:32

He actually, uh, this gentleman thought about turning professional. Uh he was a pretty good player, and then became a member at the uh uh Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews, uh, was on the Rules Committee for five years and was the secretary for 17 years, and it is indeed a great pleasure to have Peter Dawson with us today. Peter, welcome.

Peter Dawson 1:00

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's uh it's a great pleasure to be here.

Mike Gonzalez 1:04

Well, it's wonderful to have you, Peter. And of course, we've been looking forward to this for a long time, and uh as we've chatted, you know by now that uh we're approaching 100 interviews with this series of podcasts Bruce and I have created really to uh to chronicle the lives of uh golf's greats. And and that's not just uh those that have performed in the arena, but those that have served the game, and certainly you have in many uh different ways, and we're gonna explore all those. But uh uh as you know, we always start back at the beginning. We know you were born in Aberdeen, Scotland. I'm not sure you spent a lot of time there, though, did you?

Peter Dawson 1:40

No, I was born there way back in 1948. That makes me uh 76 years old, I guess, now. And uh yeah, my my family were were very modest income people and uh all from the north of Scotland. My mother was from a little village at the mouth of the River Spey and uh called Port Gordon. My father was from Banff, and their parents were from that northeast of Scotland corner as well. So I'm a hundred percent Scots and uh and I guess very proud of it. Uh I certainly am. And yes, I only stayed in Aberdeen till I was, I think, five years old, maybe six, and my father's job took him down to England, first of all, to Leeds, uh, in Yorkshire, and we stayed there for three or four years, and then back to Scotland to Edinburgh, um, when I was about, I guess, eight or nine years old, eight years old, I think. And uh Edinburgh is where I started to play this wonderful game.

Mike Gonzalez 2:37

So, your folks, uh your dad was a businessman?

Peter Dawson 2:41

He worked for what would now be British Telecom, but then was part of the what was called the General Post Office in in the UK. So he was in in management roles in in that uh organization. So telephones and uh all that kind of stuff uh way back then was nowhere near as sophisticated as it is now, but it was still a big business.

Mike Gonzalez 3:02

Yeah. And uh were your folks uh sportspeople?

Peter Dawson 3:07

Well, my father actually was uh quite a swimmer uh back in the pre-war years, 1939. He I think was British record holder at the Hundred Yards Breaststroke. Um times have moved on. I think he'd be halfway down the final length now when they were finishing, but uh today. But he he was there. And I think if there had been an Olympics in 1940, and in which of course were not held because of the war, uh he might have been uh had a good chance of of competing. But uh so I I was somewhat force-fed swimming as a as a youngster, and uh I suppose got fairly good at it. But we'll we'll talk more about that in a minute, I think.

Mike Gonzalez 3:46

Yeah, well, you you talk about sports, and uh I I know as you talk to we talked to all of these great golfers that we've met with over the last few years. Uh one common thread of the champions, and that's that they were all sort of multi-sport uh uh youth, if you will. They got exposed to a lot of different sports and developed good hand-eye and so forth. I I suppose in addition to swimming and then later golf, you probably uh participated in some other sports as well.

Peter Dawson 4:13

Well, I I played the usual team sports that you would play in the UK as as a schoolboy, you know, rugby, soccer, or football as uh as we call it, and uh and cricket. And those those team sports I think are very important for young people to play. You know, golf is predominantly an individual game, but I think it's good good for the youngsters to to understand what what team sport is all about. And so I I did that. But I I do think that generally speaking, people who are good at w one sport are good at most sports. They they have that in their in their genes, in their nature. And uh it's there's been exceptions, I'm sure, but uh usually they're good at most sports.

Mike Gonzalez 4:55

So what what was your favorite sport before you found golf?

Peter Dawson 4:59

Well, I think it was probably rugby actually. Um I quite enjoyed schoolboy rugby, yeah. Um was reasonably okay at it, and and soccer too, but uh golf uh held a particular fascination. Once I once I started it at age eleven, the the bug really bit, and um I just I just wanted to do that.

Mike Gonzalez 5:23

So tell us about how you got exposed to golf.

Peter Dawson 5:26

Well, living in Edinburgh and there are close to fifty golf courses in and around Edinburgh, so a huge number of people play the game. And uh it's very easy to get started as as a as a youngster. And my parents didn't play golf, but uh we lived under a mile from a golf course uh called Lothianburn, sadly now closed. It but it was a James Braid layout and uh at the foot of the Pentland Hills, and I walked along there and joined as a junior member uh along with another school friend of mine, Bert Nicholson, who interestingly went on later in life to win the Scottish Stroke Play Championship. So we started golf together on the same day at Lothian Burn. And uh just to give you a clue, uh the annual subscription for junior members back in, I think it must have been what about 1960, uh was one pound per year. And uh so we could afford to play. That was that was great. Little wonder perhaps that Lothian Byrne went bust eventually, but uh there you go. I think their fees had gone up. But that was all it cost. So getting started, and you know, in Edinburgh you'd see kids on buses with golf bags over their shoulders and things like that. It was uh golf as a a real game and still is of the people, and uh is still reasonably affordable in in Scotland and most parts, which is great. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 6:49

So so at the time was Lothian Burn a nine-hole uh layout or an eighteen-hole course?

Peter Dawson 6:54

No, it was an 18-hole layout, uh, right next to another course which is still going called Swanston, and uh very hilly. It uh it was real uh one foot below the other stuff.

Bruce Devlin 7:06

Yeah.

Peter Dawson 7:06

Uh it it's there weren't many flat lies, sadly, at Lothian Burn. But it was good fun.

Mike Gonzalez 7:12

And did they have a practice ground?

Peter Dawson 7:14

They had a small one, um which uh I could just about hit driver on. I think I think Tiger and others might have had trouble keeping a wedge in it, but uh in those in those days it was just about long enough for us. And uh but very uphill yet again. And uh yeah, we so in in school holidays in in summertime, I would just be there all day, every day with my friends playing and practicing and learning all the faults that have bugged me in the game ever since, I guess.

Mike Gonzalez 7:44

Yeah. Did did you have your own shag bag?

Peter Dawson 7:47

Yeah, oh yes, goodness me, you had to pick your own balls up and make sure no one stole yours and you didn't steal anyone else's. It was uh and that that's something you don't see very often these days, people picking up their own balls in the practice range. But uh Bruce will remember doing this. I guess even a pro event is very different then from what it is now.

Mike Gonzalez 8:09

I remember I remember counting all my shag balls too after I got done.

Peter Dawson 8:13

Make sure you had them all lose one. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And you cleaned them with a nail brush and all that kind of stuff, get the mud off. And uh yeah, those are the days.

Mike Gonzalez 8:23

I think I think Al Geyberger told us that he painted his with nail polish to distinguish his from other balls.

Peter Dawson 8:30

Yes, I've I've a lot of people do that, I've seen, because the nail polish tends to stay stick on for quite some time, a bit more than pen mark. So if you really value your golf ball, get the nail polish out. Exactly.

Mike Gonzalez 8:43

Yeah, so you would have uh at the time you learned you were using the small ball, I'm sure.

Peter Dawson 8:48

We were. I started golf with a small ball, and of course, uh for simon-headed drivers, and uh some of my early shafts weren't steel either.

Bruce Devlin 8:58

Heavy shafts.

Peter Dawson 8:59

And uh yeah. Strange collection of clubs. I remember I I acquired my golf clubs one at a time, as and when we could afford them, and built up a set. And uh I think it was Henry Cotton's originally in those days. Yeah, remember it well. I still I still go into the garage here and look at my some old drivers and I think, how on earth did I ever hit this? The heads are so small. But I guess the ball was a bit smaller, at least over here as well.

Mike Gonzalez 9:27

Yeah, so when do you when do you remember getting your first proper full set of golf clubs?

Peter Dawson 9:34

I guess I was probably fourteen or thereabouts when that happened. I was still playing with the the makeshift set up until then. We moved away from Edinburgh uh around my just before I was fourteen, down to Essex in the south of England, and I joined uh Thorpe Hall Golf Club there, which uh amazingly was where Michael Benalek played out of. The five-time British amateur and five-time English amateur champion sadly died a year or so ago. And uh he was at the peak of his powers then, and uh in the 1960s, and I was fortunate enough to play some golf with Michael and uh even partner him in the club team occasionally, and uh with his wife Angela, sadly departed as well. But they were wonderful people and uh a real coincidence that later in life our path should cross again at St Andrews.

Bruce Devlin 10:26

Yeah. Amazing.

Peter Dawson 10:28

But uh I got got to Thorpe Hall and began to get slowly better at golf and won a fair few boys' events or did well in junior golf in the south of England for a few years. And uh as Bruce said earlier, I I did think about turning pro. Um thank goodness I didn't, because I would certainly have starved. Uh but I think my long game wasn't too bad, but I don't think my putting and short game were up to it or anywhere near. And if I hadn't you know, I was doing reasonably well at school and and got myself into university, so my my golf resumed when I when I went to to Cambridge in 1966 and carried on that way.

Bruce Devlin 11:09

You started uh you went to uh uh George uh Harriet School in Edinburgh, right?

Peter Dawson 11:15

To start your I did, yes, yes, when I was much much younger when we were living there. Great school. Um I was there during my time there, it celebrated its 300th anniversary, tercentine. Oh my god. And uh is still thriving today even more than ever.

Mike Gonzalez 11:33

We don't have anything that old in this country.

Peter Dawson 11:36

No, it was a boys-only school then, but uh they have girls there now as well, which is great. And uh the school is thriving in the middle of Edinburgh, just underneath the the castle.

Mike Gonzalez 11:47

Well, you know, unlike uh many of our younger listeners, uh uh we all had to learn the game of golf a little differently. I mean, you've got all kinds of technology and teaching tools and trackmans and things. Uh back then it was pretty much uh you learn through observation.

Peter Dawson 12:05

Absolutely. And uh watching, you know, early television and and uh I remember going to an English golf union coaching session and Sandy Lodge uh back then, and goodness me, they were videoing us. And that this was a very much a first when I saw how awful my golf swing actually was. It was a frightening experience. Uh that was that those sort of teaching aids which are so readily available today have really moved the game on in terms of the quality of play, I think. Or have been part of part of that process.

Mike Gonzalez 12:38

Bruce, do you remember video? I mean, when you were younger, other than seeing yourself on television, were you ever videoed back in the early 60s?

Bruce Devlin 12:46

I don't recall that. No, most of the most of the time it was like you said, you know, watch other players on the practice tee and see what they're doing, uh, you know, look at all the the very good players and try to try to put a part of their game in yours. That was a lot of and then of course I had the I had the benefit of Norman von Neider being my coach. Uh I think Peter probably remembers that name. Uh he was quite uh quite a character, Norman. Uh probably the best bunker player that ever lived, in my opinion. So all the Australians and South Africans were all pretty good bunker players. We'd sooner be in the bunker than in the rough around the green, I can assure you of that. Yes, yeah.

Peter Dawson 13:34

I think I remember just a little before me, uh Peter Thompson and Bobby Cole went out to him for a while from Bobby Cole from South Africa, Peter Townsend rather from from the UK. Yeah. They they spent some time with Norman. Um he was a very famous name, especially in the teaching world. Yes, very much so.

Mike Gonzalez 13:55

Tell us a little bit about how your game developed then as a young man. I mean, did you have a particular teacher that you went to?

Peter Dawson 14:04

No, I I'm I confess to be almost entirely self-taught, probably by the worst teacher in golf. Uh and I I later in life I really regret that because the the the technical flaws do show up uh rather too rather too often. And uh no, it it was very much self-taught and playing in events and watching others and uh just just copying really as best I could.

Mike Gonzalez 14:30

Yeah, well you you had a great role model if you had to if you had the opportunity to watch Sir Michael play on a regular basis, probably not a bad swing to copy.

Peter Dawson 14:39

Well, Michael could get the ball round the golf course, but from very, very well and very safely, but from a hundred yards in, they they used to say he was the best in the world, amateur or professional, for a few years. His short game was extraordinary. Yeah. Um and uh yeah, I remember he played in the final of the English Championship against David Kelly, who in the final went round in 72 in the first round at Ganton and found himself 11 down at lunchtime to Michael. So uh Michael could play in those days. And yeah, he was he was terrific, but uh what a kind man he was, and uh just a wonderful human being. Uh learned a lot from him, that's for sure.

Mike Gonzalez 15:24

Bruce and I are sorry that we weren't able to capture his story uh before his passing. Um so uh at least twice Essex Boys Champion. You also played some county golf. Now, for our American listeners, they may not appreciate the the level of golf that is, but uh Bruce, I remember too, as as a young man, you you traveled in Australia playing in some of these uh club matches. You had a different name for those, but those were the pretty serious standard of play.

Bruce Devlin 15:52

Yeah. Well, probably the best players in each of the uh clubs, each of the golf clubs were matched against one another. I don't know how many uh people, how many groups were with you, Peter, when you were uh playing that, but uh Yeah, we probably had eight or nine different clubs.

Peter Dawson 16:12

Yeah, you're probably talking about what pennant golf. Is that what it's called? Yeah, exactly. It's pennant golf. Yeah. Uh well we're talking here more of um the United Kingdom of England, especially, is broken up into various counties. They're they're not as big as states would be, but they're they're counties. And each county would have a golf team. So they would pick the best players from all the golf clubs in that county.

Bruce Devlin 16:36

Oh, I see.

Peter Dawson 16:37

Yeah, a little bit different. They would play other counties. So I did play uh a few times for Essex, but after university I played quite a bit for Warwickshire, where I I moved to after university and started working. So very competitive, actually. It was uh it was it was good match play, uh, morning foresome's afternoon singles, whole day matches. And uh yeah, you you had to you had to do your best, or you weren't picked for the next match, that's for sure.

Mike Gonzalez 17:04

Yeah. So as as you got uh got through school, you're starting to think about uh going to university and uh uh probably a little different than these days, although you might have had an interest in playing golf in college. I'm not sure that was your major focus, was it?

Peter Dawson 17:20

No, I I think I I went to Cambridge just towards the end of sport really having an effect on whether you got a place or not at the university. It was and and it's it's gone even more academic now. But uh no, I had to take the entrance exams and and all that kind of thing, and I was I was science focused, so I went there to read uh engineering in the end, um and uh met a lot of wonderful people. They have a college system at Cambridge. I I went to Corpus Christie College, Swore College, and um yeah, I read engineering and as a part of the engineering degree in the last year did did management studies uh as well. So uh when I but golf at Cambridge in those days and still is was a wonderful experience. It was very much a winter experience uh in the two winter terms, the summer term you were supposed to be working for your exams, not playing sport. Um but um we played matches every Saturday and every Sunday against the best golf clubs in the land, and uh that was great fun, great experience. Uh I don't know how good it was for your golf, playing match play all the time, because I certainly wasn't as consistent a meta stroke play scorer after Camers that I was before I got there, but uh it was the greatest fun and a real privilege to meet so many wonderful golf people um over the years.

Bruce Devlin 18:46

I remember a couple of good players from back then, Peter Townsend and Peter Oosterhouse. Uh, did you get to spend any time with them?

Peter Dawson 18:55

I played with both of them. Um and I did play one event I remember with Peter Oosterhouse. It was the called the Porter's Park Junior Open, which was quite a big boys' event, and we're paired together. It's quite a windy day, and uh we had a few pounds on it, which was quite strange for young people we did. And I remember we both came to the last hole needing fours for 72. Quite a windy day, and uh Peter hit a driver and a one-iron to ten feet and I hit a high cut, a quick hook, and a hundred-yard wedge in the hole, and he missed it. And I I did I did actually go on to win that, but after a very funny playoff, but the playoff wasn't with Peter, but uh he was a real gentleman and wonderful golfer. The bet the best player as a young British amateur in my time, I thought, was Peter Townsend, though. He was he was a magical golfer, but and he turned pro. I think he played one Ryder Cup, maybe two. And uh but didn't really make it, sadly. But he seemed to me to be the most talented young man. But then again, Peter Oosterhaus did make it. He did extremely well and won in America and did so well in the Masters and so had a good television career too. Yes, he did, absolutely so. I understand Peter Townsend is living up in northern Finland in Lapland or something. I don't think he's playing too much golf out there. I may not be up to date with him, but that was the last I heard.

Mike Gonzalez 20:27

So, uh Cambridge Golf, that provides you an opportunity to make some lifelong friends because uh uh among other things, they have a continuing uh competition with with Oxford uh uh down at Rye Golf Club. Tell us a little bit about that. That's got to be one of the coldest events in the world.

Peter Dawson 20:45

Well, the the president's putter is uh is played at Rye, and it's for members of the Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society, who are 98% people who have played for either Oxford or Cambridge when they were there. And uh just looking now over there, I'm I I was captain of the team in 1969, and um we beat Oxford all three years I played, by the way. So mission was accomplished while I was there. That was that was all fine. But looking at these these guys and the ten members of the team, I'm there aren't too many of us still alive, very sadly. And uh great to see their faces just there. Very, very happy times. Um it was a privilege to do it. Uh looking back, it's almost unbelievable the the opportunities we were given to play all the great courses and and all the great members of these clubs.

Mike Gonzalez 21:40

Well, captaining the uh the team in 1969, that was one of the greatest uh years for golf English golf, with uh Tony Jacqueline breaking through that year.

Peter Dawson 21:52

Well, that's right. Uh I mean I'm I'm often asked uh what my favorite open moment is or was. And people always expect me to say something that happened in the time I was Secretary of the RNA. But it was actually when Tony Jaclyn won in 69, because there hadn't been a British winner since I think Max Faulkner in 51. And uh 18 years later, British golf had really been uh stood on by the Americans and the Australians and so on. And we we've we had a bit of an inferiority complex, I think. But uh Tony Jaclyn winning brought a few tears to the eyes, and uh I think that was the start of the European resurgence in the game. Uh it took a few more years, but uh suddenly people realized that it was possible and uh bred a new confidence in in aspiring players.

Mike Gonzalez 22:42

Yeah, I think I I think it did. And uh Bruce, of course, you would have been at that open championship, I suppose, at Royal Litham. I was. I was. Yeah.

Bruce Devlin 22:52

Uh Mr. Jacqueline was uh it was it was quite a uh celebratory victory for him. Everybody was really rooting for him to win, and uh he did a he did a great job. And then of course he came over the next year and wins the US Open. Uh so you know, quite a great couple of years for him, really.

Peter Dawson 23:13

Yes, hazel time. I'll never forget Henry Longhurst, our great television commentator of the day, when Draculin hit it off the last T, the 72nd hole, absolutely smashed it down the fairway. What a cawka, he said. That's absolutely right. It's uh quite interesting, actually, when you watch some past opens at Litham, how the winners have hit Driver off that T and smashed it miles down the fairway. And when Adam Scott, um, when I think the open was last at Lithum, he took the three-wood and bunkered it. But all the others had been aggressive. David Duval was another one. He was aggressive with it. Uh but yes, Tony Tony's win was a a tear-jerk moment for me.

Mike Gonzalez 23:59

That's for sure. I want to say the 69 Open Championship, was he sporting his uh purplish Pringles uh jumper?

Peter Dawson 24:09

My memory says that he was, yes. Yeah, yes, he was, I'm pretty sure. Uh and he was the the you know the golden boy. He had the looks, he had uh he had the panache, really, didn't he? Yeah, he did. Uh and had a great win in the US Open, as Bruce said, and then uh then of course Trevino didn't do him too many favors at Muirfield a couple of years later.

Bruce Devlin 24:30

Right.

Peter Dawson 24:31

Tony looked like he was gonna win it, and uh Lee Trevino uh took it from him, really. I think Tony finished third in the end. I think Jack Nicholas might have squeezed in second.

Mike Gonzalez 24:42

You're right, you're right. And and uh you know, as we as we talked about uh uh thank goodness Tony had a open championship on his CV already because uh yeah that was a tough one, tough loss for him.

Peter Dawson 24:56

It was, it really was.

Mike Gonzalez 24:58

Now speaking of Trevino and Litham, we'll we'll stick this story in now because it it while it it may pertain to your your days as as secretary, uh the minds are a bit foggy now. Uh Bruce and and uh Mr. Trevino did play in Litham, and I want to say this is probably in the 70s, whenever they might have had it in the 70s at Litham. Uh Bruce, and and I'll just kind of let you pick up the story. Peter.

Bruce Devlin 25:25

Well uh Peter may not be able to uh quite grab this story, but uh Travina I walked on the practice tee the last round and stood right next to Trevina. We were paired together and I was telling him about how bad I was driving it, and he said to me, Well, uh try my driver. And I said, Oh yeah, surely. You know, you stand uh five inches further away from the ball, your golf clubs are flat, you're only five foot six, and I'm six two, and yet you think I can hit your driver. Well, cut a long story short, I hit it, hit his driver three times and hit it pretty good, and he said, Okay, we'll use we'll use my driver all day. So we did.

Peter Dawson 26:14

No question about the rules of golf, I take it.

Bruce Devlin 26:17

Uh that was that was I know it was naughty of us, but we played the entire round using his driver. Right. And as you well know, uh we had an RA guy with us, and I said to him, How how's it gonna work? He said, Well, if it's your honor, you take my driver and I'll have yours, and then when the when the RA guy's watching where your ball ball goes, we'll just switch.

Peter Dawson 26:43

So Oh boy, I had not heard that story.

Bruce Devlin 26:49

You hadn't?

Peter Dawson 26:51

No, I had not heard that story. It happened way before my time and uh the RNA. So no, that one hasn't hasn't passed down actually, but it won out.

Bruce Devlin 27:01

So so Trevino said to me many years ago, when you were the secretary, he said that he had uh he was at a dinner and he had said to you, uh Peter, uh, should Bruce and I give back the 103 pounds we won at the open? And because we both shot the same score. We I think we won 103 pounds each.

Peter Dawson 27:28

And and obviously you do not r recall him saying that to you, but uh I don't it must have been in in the year 2000 because that was actually the first time I ever met Lee.

Bruce Devlin 27:40

Oh, was it?

Peter Dawson 27:41

And when we had the past champions events at St. Andrews, yeah. He had a dinner.

Bruce Devlin 27:48

That's right.

Peter Dawson 27:49

He was there.

Bruce Devlin 27:50

That's what he said.

Peter Dawson 27:51

Uh he was actually kind enough to give me the wedge he'd used um to hold all those shots when he when he stole the open, as it were, from Tony Jacqueline. Yeah, so I've given that to the the golf museum in St. Andrews. But uh I've seen him a number of times since, but that was the first time we'd ever had a conversation. So it was my first open in charge, as it were, and uh may have been a bit overawed by the occasion and forgotten the story, but it's a great story.

Mike Gonzalez 28:26

Well, let's take you back to uh to your university days now. You're finishing up, you're getting your uh uh your degree, engineering management studies, as you mentioned, and uh there was a fleeting thought about turning professional. Was it fleeting, or were you given it any more serious?

Peter Dawson 28:41

Oh no, it didn't. Any thoughts I had about turning pro were before I went to Cambridge. Gotcha. It was back at the end of high school, as it were. And um I'm it was a wise decision not to do that. That's that that is for sure, no question.

Mike Gonzalez 28:57

Did you know what you wanted to do going into university, or did you really not have any ideas?

Peter Dawson 29:01

No, no, I've never at any stage in my life had a plan. Things have happened along the way, uh, rather than me saying, This is where I'm going, this is what I'm gonna do. Uh that's never really happened. So I actually uh just after I left Cambridge at the tender age of 21, uh Juliet and I got married. So uh there I was having to find a job and start a you know start married life. And uh whilst I still played golf pretty regularly, it perhaps didn't it wasn't quite at the front of me and to the same degree as it had been for a few years.

Mike Gonzalez 29:38

Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends until we tee it up again for the good of the game, it's along everybody.