Sally Little - Part 1 (The Early Years)

Mike Gonzalez 0:15

Welcome to another edition of FORE the Good of the Game and Bruce Devlin. I have to admit, uh I've never said this in 46 interviews now, but I did have a bit of a boy crush on this guest today.

Bruce Devlin 0:27

Oh, well, uh, interestingly, this young lady was eight years old when I first visited her hometown of Cape Town, South Africa. And we have today with us a two-time major champion winner on the LPGA, a wonderful lady. Was actually, I understand why you had a crush on her, because she was good looking when she was a young girl, still is, as a matter of fact. Sally Little, glad to have you with us, Sally. Thanks for joining us today.

Sally Little 0:58

I'm I'm so uh proud to actually be on this. Uh, Bruce, I had a bit of a crush on you too. You you were uh you came on early to announce uh when the LPGA really got going with Dinah Shaw in uh the Colgate, and you were quite a dish back there, my boy. And could play some good golf. And and most of all, I really admired your design. You know, you really were so creative in in your course designs.

Bruce Devlin 1:32

So thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Sally Little 1:36

I don't know you, but I feel I know you now.

Mike Gonzalez 1:41

Well, we enjoyed watching that beautiful golf swing uh back when you were in your prime, and and uh as a young guy, there were several role models on the golf course. And of course, uh you're naturally going to follow uh guys like uh Jack Nicholas and Lee Trevino and so forth. But uh I always admired uh your beautiful golf swing. And we're looking forward to telling your life story with you. Uh we always start at the beginning, and there's lots to talk about, not just golf, but what you're doing post-golf too, because there's a lot of great philanthropic things you're doing that we want you to talk about. But let's just start off by uh describing for our listeners back in that era what life was like growing up as a young lady in South Africa.

Sally Little 2:23

Well, during those times, I was fortunate. I had a beautiful upbringing with my parents, and my dad was an incredible golfer, self-taught, started at the age of 40, but he was an incredible uh cricket player. Studied the book of Tommy Armour, instructional book, and was a scratch player, and he saw something in his little daughter at the age of six that he wanted her to play golf. And at the time I wasn't a bit interested because being that age, and also by the time I turned 11 or 12, golf was not popular amongst um young girls. It was with the boys, but not with the girls. So my father uh came home one day with a caddy cart and he said, Would you like to earn some pocket money on the weekends? So that's how he grabbed me. And um I followed these men, and and you'd be interested in this because my dad played a lot of golf with Bobby Locke during those that era, and Bobby was very close to my dad and a man by the name of Henry Green. So he would come down here and play golf um during the you know summer, and so I got to see them play, and then one day on the golf course I said to my dad, Can I have a hit? And my dad goes, No, you got to learn properly. So I got um I said fine, I don't want to learn. And then apparently, after three months, I said, I'm ready. So my dad taught me from the age of 12, and um he was terrific in the sense that he made it fun, and after about two months, I started to take to it, and our ladies at our golf club said to my parents, gee, Sally should get off school um early on Tuesdays and get some competition. And my father, he was amazing, and my mom was terrified of a schoolmistress, so my dad had to go and speak to her to get me off, and I got off and I won their competition two weeks in a row, and they called and they said, We don't want to babysit your daughter. So my dad, my mom, dad were really upset, and he went back to the schoolmistress, and he said, My daughter will play on Wednesday afternoons with the boys. So I teed it up at Metropolitan, my home course. I'm still a member here. I've come full circle, I live across the street. And um, I teed it up with all the members of Metropolitan, not with my dad, on Wednesday afternoons in the field. And the deal was I couldn't swear like them and I had to play quickly. That's a great and the rest is history. Yeah, often I often say, you know, when you think back, because I remember I won the I won this our province, which is you know your state championship at the age of 15. And the lady that I competed against, um, she was 50 years old, and I walked up to the first T final round, and the all the Metropolitan members, the men, were on the first T all the way down the fairway. She didn't have a prayer to beat them. So I always say they gave me that power to play internationally, the men. Yeah. Fantastic stories.

Mike Gonzalez 6:10

Did you play other sports as well when you were younger?

Sally Little 6:13

Very much so. Um I had aspirations of being a swimmer, and my dad said, uh-uh, no, no, no, no, no. That will just only last a few years. Come on, let's have a sport that you can play for with some long jet. And tennis with everything was, you know, but golf is not popular in those years, Mike. Not at all. So, but the funny thing was, growing up and you have that kind of environment, I just got into it as a kid. And um, my dad said, you know, you're just gonna play. And I just played with the boys, and I even played in the men's, the boys' western province. I played on their team, you know. As I was part of the team, it didn't matter, and which is unusual in those years, but apparently I was good enough to get accepted, and um, I played everywhere, and I had this group of my age, um, young men, and we just were pals.

Mike Gonzalez 7:20

So, Sally, at that time in women's golf, were there were there probably weren't a lot of women golf role models for you to follow, were there?

Sally Little 7:29

Not at all. Um, there was no one. My role model was Gary Player. And um when Gary got inducted into the Hall of Fame, yeah, they asked me to speak. And um, it was funny because Gary came to our club when I was just 12. Do you mind me talking about this?

Mike Gonzalez 7:50

Because it's no, not at all.

Sally Little 7:52

Um he was, I look back um because someone looked, there was a picture of Gary and I shaking hands. I was 12 and he was 27 in his prime, and he came to our club to do a clinic, and um so he was teaching, and then he pulled a young man by the name of Harry and myself out to hit in front of the crowd, and he was he was enamored, and he gave us each a club, and he gives Harry a wood at the time, and he gives me a one-on.

Mike Gonzalez 8:31

Oh, great. He must have been impressed with your skill.

Sally Little 8:35

And my dad was like, and he you can't hit a one-on-one. I said, watch. So that club went in my bag as a youngster, and no one got hold of that club. And when he was inducted, I said, you know, Gary, you you were amazing, and you put that, instilled that in me, like I'm determined, I'm gonna hit this one-on-one. Thanks so much. He had tears, you know, that determination. I think he really instilled in me early, Gary.

Mike Gonzalez 9:06

Yeah, he he was one of our early guests, Sally. And uh, Bruce, I think it's fair to say that we didn't have to ask many questions, did we?

Bruce Devlin 9:14

No, no, and Sally, just bring you up to date, too. The first time I ever uh I was 17 years old when Gary first made his trip to Australia, and I played a little exhibition with him, uh, similar to what you just saying. Uh they said, Okay, Bruce, you've got to play with Gary Player. And I sort of didn't know who Gary Player was back in those days. Soon found out who he was, though. But we played a little exhibition when I was 17 years old on a little golf call called Yes Golf Club that had sand greens. Uh I don't know. So so it was fun to meet him back then, and what what a career he's had. And uh I I know he's instilled a lot of uh uh a lot of desire in a lot of South Africans to play the game, and boy, we've had some good ones.

Sally Little 10:03

Uh he's I I said when I said, you know, the sad thing actually, you know, you were my hero in front of everybody, which I think is kind of sad because when I look at all the talent coming out of South Africa and has for many years, all men, no women. And I said, you know, I didn't have a female hero, and it's time, you know, like uh America has it, Australia has it, but why aren't there any super superstars? You every 10 years in South Africa the cycle changes. So Gary had Bobby Locke, and then Ernie had Gary. Just look at the cycle, and there was never another one of me, and I always wondered why not.

Bruce Devlin 10:55

Yeah, yeah. Well, you you'll uh you'll make some you'll you'll what you're doing now, that'll uh that'll instill some uh some young girls to play the game in South Africa, I'm sure.

Sally Little 11:07

The game is so incredible what it teaches you, you know. I embody it, and that's what's instilled to my youngsters. I I train here, they they come from previously disadvantaged backgrounds, and they're learning, you know, what the game is. It's not about finding the champion, golfer, it's about the skills that you learn, and hopefully they're going they're going on to better education, and I hope that they will take up something in golf, like be an agronomist or be a golf teacher, and that's what I'm all about in my training.

Bruce Devlin 11:45

Good. So, Sally, uh your dad being uh the only man that taught you, uh, I mean, what a job he did. Uh, as an amateur career, you won eight international amateur events. There's 1970 World Amateur Team Championship, you were low individual, South Africa match play winner, stroke play winner, Lady Carling Open. Boy, what a what a career you had as a young uh lady before you turned pro.

Sally Little 12:15

Yeah, and and and you know, when you think back, I mean, I'm just amazed too, you know, that I but Bruce, all I can say is there no accidents in life, and I had um some real career help, and it came from the likes of my parents, they saw the talent, but also by a name, a man by the name of George Bloomberg. George Bloomberg was instrumental in my career by chance, because my dad always said, Sally, the top golfers are not in the Western Cape, they are in the Transvaal, which is Johannesburg area. You gotta go up there and see. And I went up when I was 15 and I beat this lady in on her home course in the Transvaal. I beat her nine and eight. We played much play then. And she went home to her husband, and it happened to be George Bloomberg, and and flabbergasted that his wife, who was really a good player, could be beaten nine and eight. And she kept on him all week long about going to see this youngster. And he said, girls can't play golf, especially from the Western Western province in those years. We know the Western Cape. And by Friday, I got in the finals, so he came to watch. And then afterwards he said, Can I have your father's phone number? And he called and he said, Your daughter's got to get out of the country, she's got to go. And he's my dad said, You mad, she's only 15. He said, No. We'll watch her and make opportunities happen for her. And he said, Let's get her ready. And by the age of 17, just turning 17, I got ready, I could go. And my first event was going to be the women's British amateur, the French, and then on to America. And uh a week before my travels, my due date to travel, uh, we got a telegram saying you cannot play in the British amateur because of apartheid. So I was kept out, boom. And but George and Brenda Bloomberg, they were in London at the time. They said, send her, we'll take care of her, and she'll go on to France. And then um I had the most incredible time, and and George and Brenda were very instrumental. So when I left to fly to the States, I was gonna go on to uh qualified for the Women's Open for the first time and the amateur in 1970. And George and Brenda said, We'll meet you in New York because I was never alone. And I mean, I was you know, 16 and a half, 17, I was 12 years of age, I mean, mentally, but they always kept me close, and I got to see David Graham. They took me to the British, sorry, to the US Open in Philadelphia at Merion, and I got to see David Graham win. Win the open. So all these little things building that foundation to give me the foundation to play at the level I played at.

Mike Gonzalez 15:40

You saw one of the greatest final rounds in US Open history, didn't you?

Sally Little 15:44

It was unbelievable. Yes.

Mike Gonzalez 15:48

You mentioned the the challenge uh uh I guess I'm sure a player faced, uh perhaps Locke faced as well, being from South Africa, in that you aren't always finding that you were welcome in all the countries across the world because of the apartheid issue at home, yeah?

Sally Little 16:05

It and especially, you know, Mike, when you're young too, you know, you don't think of these things. You just want to play and you want to win. And I I just I was flabbergasted, number one, to be kept out of the British, especially in Galen or Gallen. There's no people that would ever go to that tournament. Um but I remember my first year on tour, I mean, um in Atlanta, Georgia. Our sponsor was Pepsi Cola at the time, and yeah, with these big headlines, oh, you got a South African plane this week, we're gonna boycott, we're gonna do all sorts of things, and it was like, whoa. And I had a local caddy, and it was really like, oh, what is he gonna think? And I had two policemen walking with me playing. It just, but you know, those things happened, and it went through a long period. I because I remember when I was, I think almost I was number two in the world, and our last event of the year was um in Japan and uh the co-sanctioned Japanese tournament. So yeah, take the top 50, and I flew over, and they said no, you can't come in. And I went from number two, I think, to number seven in one week, and it was a shock because it kept me out of a number of events at the end of the year, and it was difficult, but um, you know, we get past these things, and uh, my dad was incredible in the process of saying, you know, Sal, you gotta look at your life, and you never have earned a penny in South Africa, and now you live in America, you're on that tour, and you need to vote. My dad says, You need to vote. So you need to go and apply for your for for your American citizenship, and it was like, really? Because no. And I went through the process, I'm sure, like you went through five years, Bruce, getting your green card. And and and my dad was incredible the way he made things a little bit nicer, you know, because it was not pleasant for people. You think people don't like you because of where you're from. And it really wasn't like that because I I've always thought Americans treated me so well when I played in America, they always did. So, but it still was hard because I love my country, you know, but I didn't understand at the age of 20 what was going on.

Mike Gonzalez 18:59

And you know, we talked uh we talked with Gary Player about this uh a bit as well when we visited with him, and and he shared some incredible stories of uh torment and ridicule that he faced as he traveled the world during those times. And the thing I remembered uh about what he shared, he said, you know, it took me a while to find my voice.

Sally Little 19:22

And he was very in he was very strong with his voice in South Africa. He was. He stood strong. Yeah, you've got to admire that about him.

Mike Gonzalez 19:36

Yeah. So you know, I I don't wanna I don't wanna uh morally equate the two issues, but our listeners who are hearing this talk about apartheid back in the day, uh, particularly the younger listeners, because they didn't live through it, uh it you know, it seems a bit strange to think about uh how people were treated and and how people behaved. But I would suspect in 40 or 50 years, people are going to look back and hear about this live golf, this Saudi Arabian golf, and think some of the same things. You know, like how could you how could you fault some of these young kids who haven't made much money over a few years on tour, suddenly want to go and and take care of their family and and and make a little bit of money, but because of the source of the money, they face personal ridicule.

Sally Little 20:27

Very much so. It's an interesting thing because people ask me, especially because of the amount of time, my age, Bruce, I'm sure you feel the same way, about how you feel about this situation. And you know, I'm a pro history, all about winning a major and earning your own stripes, you know. It's like the beauty of professional golf was you're not guaranteed the money like other sports, except the thing for tennis. But you know, it it's you know, I've had it's it's kind of an interesting thing that's happening here. And um I can only equate it because Americans don't have um we have cricket in South Africa, and we have the test matches, and now they got this T20 cricket, and that whole in the beginning it was like, how can you do this to cricket? You know, how can you make it this? But it's become so popular, and and it's quick and it's fast, and people love it. So I can't judge, you know, really. Um, I still believe that you should earn your merit um to be on the PGA tour or the LPGA tour. But you can't deny um a young man who hasn't earned and he's weighing. Years and he's got a ch chance to win four million dollars. Um, so I can't judge that. I just wish they would have that for women as well.

Bruce Devlin 22:10

Yeah. Would you come out of retirement, Sally? Would you come out?

Mike Gonzalez 22:16

You know, Sally is as Bruce knows, we're always tempted to talk about current events, but we're really here to tell life stories. And so we generally don't get into it. But I think uh uh for purposes of this discussion, golf seems to be at an inflection point right now. And it just you just look no further than this past week and think about what's happened in the world of golf. You've got a young lady playing up against the men in Sweden this past week in the DP World Tour, wins by nine shots. I mean, what a story Lynn Grant's all about, huh?

Sally Little 22:50

Yes, it's yeah, and and that makes it fun. It makes it exciting. People want to watch. You know, we're all about ratings.

Mike Gonzalez 22:59

Yeah, you mentioned Marion. You've got the young ladies competing in the Curtis Cup at Marion Golf Club, one of the greatest historical golf clubs in the world. You've got uh Justin Thomas and uh and Rory McElroy going head to head in an epic battle at uh the Canadian Open, which uh came back after three years to golf hungry Canadians. Just a lot of great golf stories in the world, but it's all in the context of what's going on with the perceived threat to the PGA Tour by uh the uh Saudi Golf League. Yeah.

Sally Little 23:33

Well, I'm sure it'll all come out in the wash, put it that way.

Mike Gonzalez 23:36

Yeah.

Sally Little 23:37

And as far as I'm concerned, that um, you know, when our ratings were so bad and during COVID, I mean, out the drop in golf, people playing golf, now it's on the rise again. And for me, it's just fantastic. Finally, my country, South Africa, is showing women's golf featured women's golf. When I first came back, it's been I've been back almost 10 years and never saw uh women's golf on TV, but the last uh two years, and it's featured now. Um, you know, I can turn it on and find anything. And to me, it just shows you how popular uh my side of golf has become, and it's exciting. You know, I had no clue how well they play, and people don't realize this how far they hit the ball. I mean, during our years, comparatively, we did hit the ball far. But now I went to an event in last August. Um, Nancy Lopez, a couple of us were given the Pioneer Award in New Jersey, and I just wanted to go on on Gothquis and see these women play. I was flabbergasted how far they hit it and the concise um distance control they have. Too, they're strong and and beautiful to watch. And I know all my friends back here, all the guys watch women's golf now on TV.

Bruce Devlin 25:10

Well, if they want to learn how to swing the club correctly, they should watch the women because they do it better than the men.

Sally Little 25:18

Yeah, you you have to, as you know, because you when you've got strength, you can get away with a lot. But USC's women are very fit now, and it's wonderful to see how well they play. Um I'm so excited for the LPJ tour.

Mike Gonzalez 25:36

Sally, I bet you would have enjoyed playing for $10 million in the US Open.

Sally Little 25:43

We all saw that one when we played for 100,000, we were proud.

Bruce Devlin 25:48

Yeah, isn't that the truth? Yeah, yeah.

Sally Little 25:51

Everything's relative, but yes, 10 10 million, incredible. And um, and look at the scores. That's what you gotta look at, too. Um, they're incredibly competitive, and and for a woman to win this last one in Sweden. I mean, we always thought, wouldn't it be fun that could we could have tournaments alongside of the men at times? Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 26:19

Yeah.

Sally Little 26:19

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 26:20

Yeah, she took care of business. So let's uh let's just double back to your amateur career, your game's developing, you begin to travel to see what some of the finer women players around the world are looking like, and you're able to benchmark yourself against that. When did you get to a point where you said, hey, I may want to do this for a living?

Sally Little 26:41

Um, it was interesting because when I traveled the first time as an amateur, I wasn't my first trip. Uh, the Bloombergs again. And at the time, Mark McCormack, International Management, was involved. Yeah, because uh George Bloomberg started international management with Mark McCormack. So Mark said, Well, how good is she? Let's send her down to Bob Toske, because he was the guru of golf at the time. So I was sent down to meet Bob Toskey. And he was a character, and um, with entourage, I was terrified. And he said, Hit some balls. I said, No, not in front of these people. And he said, How do you think you're gonna be a professional? Hit some balls. He was tough. So I started hitting, and he never he was whispering, didn't say anything. And he said, Let's go have let's go have lunch. And I went, This is strange, man. And um, he said, I want your father's phone number. And he called my dad and he said, There's nothing I would change in a golf swing. The best advice is she needs to turn pro and learn to win. And uh, with that, I went on, I got into the Lady Carling uh Open as an amateur, and uh just went there, teeded it up, and I finished third, not as an amateur, but third in the event, and I just thought I was really great. Needless to say, it took me another four years to really mature and and become a player because I was so raw. And um, but I must say the the players at the time were so accepting and helpful uh for this young South African. So I didn't like it. I didn't like it in the beginning because I never won. Uh, had difficulty in the sense I wanted to be home and I want to be there. And uh I remember I I received the Rookie of the Year after seven events, and I thought I was so great, I went home. And then my dad said, you know, how do you expect to be a professional when you're not playing? So I said, Dad, I just it's different. And he said, Why don't you take one season, Sally? And if you don't like it, you can re you can stop. So I said, All right, so I went for one season, never left America and played, and won my first event and top tens, and the rest is history. So I made the commitment, and then I started to like it because I felt I could beat the Americans.

Bruce Devlin 29:33

Yeah, yeah, made a little bit of money too.

Sally Little 29:36

I made some money. My dad wasn't putting the bull anymore.

Mike Gonzalez 29:42

That's right. Yeah, so explain explain for our listeners what the process of turning professional was like back then.

Sally Little 29:52

Well, at the time, Mike, it was different. Uh, qualifications were different because the field was quite small. They only had 50 players at the time on the LPGA tour that had qualified. So I had I could go and I had to play several events and look at the scoring average, and then I had to sit out for five weeks. So, and that was the process. And my scoring average was so good they accepted me after five weeks. But you know, it I don't really even know how I did it because I didn't have the experience, you know, like young kids have today, uh, in the sense going to high school and being so competitive. These high schools are amazing. What's coming now? Because in my years, you learn to win on tour. I'm sure Bruce will say the same thing. Um, you learnt your skill through experience, but now you learn it before you teared up because of all the competitiveness in junior school, high school, on to college.

Mike Gonzalez 31:10

Yeah.

Sally Little 31:10

So, but we had very few players at the time.

Mike Gonzalez 31:15

That's for our listeners just recap briefly uh the professional career of Sally Little and then take a walk down memory lane. We want to talk about some of your great victories over time. Sally turning professional in 1971 at age 19. She had 15 professional wins, all of which were on the LPGA Tour, which ties her for 37th on the all-time list of winners. And uh, as she mentioned earlier, 1971 Rookie of the Year. That's the year she joined the LPGA Tour. Two major in her uh portfolio, the 1980 Women's PGA Championship, which we'll talk about, as well as the 1980 Morrier Classic. But uh, let's talk about win number one, which I think came pretty close to where I'm sitting, if if I'm not mistaken. Was that uh the Women's International at Moss Creek?

Sally Little 32:03

Absolutely. Um have fun memories of that golf course, and um I had had opportunities to win several times, but I really could never finish. I was known to not be able to finish. And um, we all call it choking, but I always call it learning, learning to win. And um, I would lead and then have a bad round. So here I go again. Um leading, playing beautiful golf, um three rounds, and leading until the 16th hole. And by the way, your Aussie counterpart, Jan Stevenson, Bruce, is in the clubhouse. She's she's one shot behind. And we get I get to 17 in our three-part, and now we're tied. So now when you walk into the tea, it's always, well, yeah, you go again, Sally. And I remember it so well. I pull my t-shot, and I've got a my feet are below the ball. I got a five iron, low flat shot in, hit the front bunker, long bunker shot, 70 feet, apparently, because they put a plaque there. And um, I'm getting into the bunker saying, Well, yeah, you go again. And I hold it, I hold the bunker shot. I think I jumped straight up into my caddy's arms. It was just one of those moments that you dream about winning. And that tournament at the time was a big event, the international. Yeah, so what? It had great aspirations of being our masters, it didn't turn out, but that's the direction they wanted to go with. But it was on TV and everything, and yeah, this is how I won my first LPGA event, and those memories stayed with me because then I became I knew I could win and do it in my own style.

Mike Gonzalez 34:13

Yeah, yeah. You know, as we were researching this, uh, I looked back at one of the articles describing that last round, and there was mention of a of a fairly long delay on the 16th hole for a ruling for Merle Breer after you had birdied the two previous holes. Do you remember that?

Sally Little 34:28

Yes, yes, and that got me rattled, you know, because you you tense and and you and this went on and on and on, and you know, you just want to keep moving, you want to keep playing, and we were stuck there, and I got very tight, very tight, and then um felt the pressure and three-putted, three-putted the 17th, it's tiny whole, small green. Um, but I'd lost my my cadence, my rhythm, my inner rhythm because of the weight. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 35:09

Was was Jane Blaylock out there chewing you on?

Sally Little 35:13

Jane was very positive with me in the sense that Jane was um Bob Tusky's pupil. So when I first went out on tour, he called Jane and said, Listen, here comes this whippersnapper, and she's really good. Now you better help her. So Jane really she I played practice rounds with her, and she was fantastic. As a young person, when I took a week off, she invited me to I went to stay with her parents, you know, in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. So she was incredibly supportive of this youngster. Yeah. So she was always pulling for me. Are you kidding? Um, and she used to get upset when I beat her too. I never forgot. Yeah, she said to me, You stole my only major could have won the LPGA. When I beat her in the LPGA um in Cincinnati the last round, she goes, was my only major I could have ever won, and you stole it from me. But playing, she was always she's playful. I I really enjoyed playing against Jane. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 36:33

So how important was it and how life-changing was it to get that first victory under your belt?

Sally Little 36:40

It was it just settled me. It it it I felt I'd come home, you know. I I really could play against um the Americans players because I always held them in such um great regard in the sense they were so different to me. I never, I always try to be like them. They had such a work ethic that was different to me. I was a player that didn't like to hit a lot of golf balls. I just had my set routine, I had a golf swing, I was comfortable with, but they worked so hard and I felt guilty, and I felt like I had to work that hard. And until I realized that I can't be like them, I have to be like me, then I became me, and and that rhythm and that cadence, and I found that I was not a player that liked to be in the front of the field. I liked the last rounds, was because I didn't have to deal with the press. You know, yes, you're gonna shoot in three rounds, you're gonna shoot a low round if you got a chance to win. But I figured out in those years, if I was eight shots behind going into the the last 36 holes, I could win. So I didn't have to deal with the press. And then would come the low numbers on the final day where I could shoot, throw at a throw out a 65 or 64 at them. I loved that. I enjoyed that kind of play.

Bruce Devlin 38:21

You did that in 1978 when you won the Catherine uh Crosby Tournament, the Honda Civic Classic at Rancho Bernardo. You finished with a uh around a 65 there, and I find it very interesting. Your first four victories on the LPJ tour, the people that finished second to you were Jan Stevenson, Nancy Lopez, Nancy Lopez, and Pat Bradley. I mean, there's some talent right there.

Sally Little 38:51

Yes, and you know, you you there's certain people you like to play with, Bruce. I'm sure you also felt that in your career. And one, I loved to play against Nancy Lopez. We had a certain way, the way we played golf against each other was beautiful. We we it seemed like we inspired each other to play better. And um, I always think of Nancy in my life of who I'd want to play golf with. And she was one where she just made you feel like you can play really great golf. It was her personality, and and how I look at Nancy and several of those players out there, they wanted you to beat you at your best, not at your worst. And that's the look of a Nancy, and even Pat Bradley. Bradley, she always loved, she complimented my golf game when I played against them all. They complimented it, and and vice versa. And to me, when you think back, here are your competitors and they compliment you when you're out there competing. That to me is very special. I saw Nancy last August when we both were received the Pioneer Award from the LPGA, and I actually said that in my speech. I said, there are in my life playing golf as a professional, there to me were very few champions. And sitting here tonight is a true champion. And a champion to me is a is a person that plays at that level and wants you to play at that high level together, and that's Nancy Lopez. Not at your worst, but at your best. And it's the truth, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 40:54

Yeah. Bruce, you mentioned uh some of the Hall of Famers that Sally had beaten her first few tournaments. Uh, you know, you remind our listeners of the era we're in. We're kind of back in the 70s here, uh approaching the end of the 70s, and and that's really when corporate sponsorship sort of began on the tour with Colgate Palmolov getting involved with the Dinosaur uh uh purses uh certainly up from the 60s. You had uh the founders by then of the PGA were were long gone, and you had some of the more established players uh in their final days, like a Mickey Wright and a Kathy Whitworth and a Carol Mann, people like that. And in the 70s, uh, while people like Nancy Lopez were just coming on the scene, the established players back then were people like Judy Rankin, Amy Alcott, uh Joanne Carner, uh Jane Blaylock we mentioned, Sandra Palmer, Susie Maxwell Burning, uh Jan Stevenson. There were quite a long list, many of those Hall of Famers that you're going up against every week.

Sally Little 41:56

And Beth Daniel, great competitor.

Mike Gonzalez 41:58

Well, she was coming on the T scene, that's right, yeah.

Sally Little 42:00

Uh Beth, um but uh the fun thing was for me at that era, I got to see Mickey Wright play. I got to actually bug Mickey Wright. I got to play with Sandra Spousich, who I thought was one of the top, top players. She didn't win enough, but stunning golfer. Uh Sandra Palmer. So I learned my craft by bugging these people. I used to go and watch Mickey hit, and she goes, What are you doing? I said, I want to learn that shot. I wasn't afraid to ask, you know, about how do you hit this kind of shot? Finally, she just said, Come watch me. Let's have a practice round. I don't want to talk to you. I was a bit of a pissed. Um, but um, I wanted to know. Um, all these, they actually were very um, another one was um fantastic Mary Mills. You don't hear about Mary Mills, but US Open winner. That Mary could play like she was gifted, and you know, in the sense that she could take a four-iron and hit it as far as a wedge. And you never knew what kind of a shot, because you know, you're always wondering what a player is hitting. It's in your instinct to want to know what they're gonna hit off a part three, and you could never ever club off Mary Mills because she'd get you every time, because she was so gifted in the type of shots she hit. So these are all the things we learned way back when, you know, different shots. And and I would never change that era that I lived in and played in because of those moments. And to just to hear Mickey Wright hit a golf ball, there was nothing like it. The sound of the way that woman hit a golf ball, unbelievable. Um, so those memories still stay with me. Me and the competitiveness of a Jane Blaylock. Oh my word, she was such a competitor. How do you I I think she has the highest um accolades in how many cuts she made on both tours, uh just such a stickler for for competitiveness. Yeah, I mean, I I was blessed to have met all of these people.

Mike Gonzalez 44:32

I remember Kathy Whitworth being quoted once as saying that uh Mickey Wright was our Ben Hogan and Nancy Lopez was our Arnold Palmer.

Sally Little 44:42

That's true. I I agree. And there's another one, Mickey. I mean sorry, Kathy Whitworth. What a competitor. A competitor of note. Um she gave a lot to the game too. She really did, and most of them did. And you know, they weren't playing for I had one of the greatest experiences of of um meeting and playing with Patty Berg. She was a character, and and I was a Wilson player, so it was like, oh yeah, you better, I'm gonna teach you a thing or two, you whippersnapper. I had to play golf with her, you know, practice rounds. So I get paired with her at the dinosaur, like my first year. I'm paired with her, and so we get we walk up, I'll never forget it on the ninth hole, part five. She hits her third shot in there, and we both do. And she goes up and she comes to me, she goes, Go mark my ball. I looked at her, said, I can't mark your ball, it's against the she goes, I'm just testing you. She used to pull my leg all the time. I loved her. I got a Christmas card from her from the first year that I met her till the day till the time she passed.

Mike Gonzalez 46:12

Patty Berg. Did you ever get to go to Florida to go to one of her famous schools where she was teaching people how to do clinics?

Sally Little 46:21

I never did. I did not. I actually I was lucky, I think, from what I've heard.

Bruce Devlin 46:26

Yeah.

Sally Little 46:28

Uh she by that time she wasn't doing that anymore. But the likes of all those players, like Shelly Hamlin, used to tell us the stories. But in the end, like the great Shelly Hamlin was a fantastic um person when it came to clinics from the experience of Patty Berg. But I I ducked that one. I was quite happy.

Mike Gonzalez 46:55

How many of the other LPGA uh founders did you uh have a chance to meet early on?

Sally Little 47:02

I met most of them. Um never met Babe Saharis. Um and you know, my my heart is sore. The first time I had met Shirley Spook was last August in my life. She was a founder and she came to the event, and she also received the Pioneer Award. We spent the week together. I thought, what an amazing woman. And and then she's just passed. So my heart saw that I did not know her. What an incredible woman. Incredible mind. At her age, she was in her 90s when I saw her. She had a mind like a steel trap. She could remember everything. And um I met several of the I love Marilyn Smith. Oh, Marilyn Smith was another one. Um can I tell a funny story about Marilyn? Am I talking too much?

Mike Gonzalez 48:03

No, no, no.

Sally Little 48:04

Marilyn, Marilyn was fabulous, and I was defending at Moss Creek, and at the time we had had some issues with someone who was following that shouldn't have been following the tour, a stalker. So we now been saying, Oh, yeah, we gotta watch out, and this is happening. So now we all tee off and we go and we're on the back nine, and the back nine at Mosque Creek at the time was next to a farm. So we all playing this gunshot goes off, and we all hit the deck, column, down. We think it's the stalker, it was a farmer next door firing off. Yeah, and and we all lay low, and there's Marilyn, she wouldn't get up. We finally had to lift up my memories. Yeah, funny, funny stories.

Mike Gonzalez 49:07

Well, Bruce, you may recall that Marilyn Smith was the first woman to work a men's golf broadcast.

Bruce Devlin 49:14

Yeah, that's true. And uh uh I might have been one of the early, early ones to work a ladies' broadcast too when I first started with NBC.

Sally Little 49:26

You worked well, you know, you worked the Dinah Shaw with Shaw. I still have that memory of you two in the box together because I won that event and you interviewed us. It was fantastic.

Mike Gonzalez 49:43

Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends until we tee it up again for the good of the game. So long, everybody.

Outro Music 50:07

It went smack on the fairway.