Sandy Lyle - Part 1 (The Early Years and Early Tour Wins)

Mike Gonzalez 0:14

Welcome to another edition of FORE the Good of the Game and Bruce Devlin. Not only this morning do we have our first Scotsman, but uh he and I also have something else in common. We're both playing age-appropriate golf shafts.

Bruce Devlin 0:29

Oh, is that right? Huh? Well, I gotta tell you, this guest we have today, uh, 1985 Open Champion and the 88 Masters Champion, a winner of 30 golf tournaments around the world, and it is indeed a pleasure to have Sandy Lyle with us today. Sandy, welcome. Mike and I have been looking forward to this for a long time.

Sandy Lyle 0:53

Well, thank you very much for your introduction. I'm looking forward to hearing your questions. Okay.

Mike Gonzalez 0:59

Sandy, great to have you with us. And uh I know you're a hickory player. I just took that up, and so before we're done this morning, we're gonna talk a little bit of hickory because I want to know a little bit about your experience. I I consulted with Bruce on some club tweaking, and uh so we can compare notes on that later, okay?

Sandy Lyle 1:17

Okay.

Mike Gonzalez 1:19

So to tell your story, as we talked about uh wanting to do, uh, we've got to go back to the beginning. So uh that takes us back to the late 50s. Uh in uh in uh I guess what would you call that, the West Midlands of England?

Sandy Lyle 1:33

It's the West Midlands, uh Shropshire is the area. Ian Wosnham was also in the same area too. So we were born, I was in Shrewsbury, and uh Wuzzy was in Osvestree, which was about 12 miles up the road. So that's how we all kind of got together in a little place called Shropshire. So I was born in 1958, and uh my father was from Glasgow area, and my mum and my two sisters, and we were actually from sort of golf family in some ways, that we were sort of farmers, the family was. And there was a golf course uh designed by some local friends of his, and the farmland that they had was changed into a golf course, which is still called Clober Golf Course, and it's not owned by the Lyle family now, um, it's um owned by the members. And so it all started. I think there was nine in my dad's family. So you can imagine with uh the brothers and things, there was I think there were five of them, there was uh not too much space for the position as the professional golfer or club at uh Cloba Golf Clubs. I think my dad had a chance to move down to Shropshire, which is about 450 miles away. And uh he had an interview, got the position as a sort of club uh uh club pro, and also involved with the greenkeeping side of it. So he's wearing two hats. Uh really nice place. It was uh 360 odd acres of land, uh, a hotel, and one golf course. And the golf course has got follies on it, they've got hills, uh lots of oak trees, parkland, no sea nearby. Nearest sea is about 90 miles away. So I was growing up on a Lynx, uh not Lynx Golf, uh on an inland course. So that's how it all started. So my dad was uh there for about 15 years, and the whole place came up for sale. Uh, the member of the golf course started to get a little posse of uh guys together. There was a builder, there was a lawyer, there was various other people, my dad being the golf side of it. So I called them the dirty dozen. They were the ones that uh sort of put the place and set it off the way it went uh later on. So it was bought for a grand price of about 65,000 pounds, which is about the price of a BMW five series car these days. Right. Which I still kind of shake my head in disbelief uh back in the 60s, what it was bought for. And uh so the Pro Shop and the house was built together, uh, not particularly in very good condition. I think my mum was writing a letter uh one time in the space of about an hour or two hours while she was writing that she caught 13 mice in a mouse trap. So give you some idea. And uh the guy before they moved in, I think stored coal in the bathroom area. So you can imagine it was really pretty rough. So uh from there onwards it just all went um went the right direction. The golf course got improved, and uh I was born sort of later on, about three years later, after my dad moved down, and that was it. He stayed there to the remainder of his life. And um, so I really was brought up on golf. Uh the DNA was come from the golf, probably in Glasgow area. Um my dad wasn't too bad a golfer. Uh my dad's brother, older brother, Walter Lyle, um, he'd won the Scottish professional something or other at some stage, and then Carnousty, I think he played with um Ben Hogan at Carnoostie. So there's a name you might be familiar with. Yes, sir. And uh so his his initials were AW Lyle and I'm AWB Lyle. So we're very similar kind of uh initials. Yeah. So we've the DNA was there. Um not going back hundreds of years, but obviously it started off at uh some years ago, and I must have maybe got some of that DNA off them and uh started playing golf at the age about the age of three, four years old, and went from there onwards. And uh and there wasn't a junior section at Hawkeston Park where I was based at. Um so I really had to sort of play against the the men. Um so there was no kind of soft upbringing as far as playing with four-year-olds and matching this and doing that, and playing this and that. But later on, as we got older, um, and I get towards sort of 14, 15, I got to play in some local events, which in Wurzlam I got to meet a few times. Uh, one of the director's son, Tony Minchel, um, was an up-and-coming did term pro, about a year and a half older than me. So there were some challenges there and some things to uh set your sights on and improve your your score and your golf game, and it all kind of fitted together, but there was no kind of uh going to classes or you know once a week with the local golf club and learn how to play the game. It was really built around uh playing at Hawkeston, playing with the members. Uh my practice ground I had wasn't very wide, it was like 25 yards wide, but running between two fairways. But halfway down the uh practice ground area there was uh a beach tree, which is still there to this day. And that beech tree was my entertainment. It was uh my little tuba balls, and I would play with a sort of a hook shot and go around the tree and over the tree and through gaps and then pick the balls up the other side and then do the same thing from the other direction. So, and playing below branches and over branches and around hooking, slicing. So I think that was a really good um a good sort of course for me to a bit like in Bubba Watson, it just plays maneuvered shots and can do it on the golf course.

Bruce Devlin 7:55

Yeah, yeah, that's a great uh great terrific story.

Mike Gonzalez 8:01

Did you play other sports as a as a lad?

Sandy Lyle 8:04

Um well I I was sort of chosen to play in the cricket team, which is uh almost non-existent, um, because I've got a good eye for the ball, and maybe flown uh javelin, but football, I just wasn't quick enough. I was I was I'm just not built for that speed. Yeah. Uh rugby wasn't a big thing uh down in the the schools in in the Midlands. Obviously, Scotland's very big on rugby, so I didn't play Holly any rugby at all. So probably a good thing in some ways that um you know I don't get injuries collarbones and ribs cracked and fingers broken and all these sort of things, which is one of the little uh side effects of you know trying to be a professional golfer is to stay away from injuries as best you can. Um, you know, doing motorbikes at a very early age was a no-no, or going on school uh skiing holidays was a no-no, because I'm always scared of breaking a leg or an injury, and then that really blows your chance of um playing professional golf.

Mike Gonzalez 9:13

So, who were some of your early influences then as you learned the game as a young man, or did you learn more from just observation, reading books? How did it come to you?

Sandy Lyle 9:24

Well, reading wasn't one of my forte, um, but there was obviously big names like Gary Player and Raymond Floyd was another name and Sam Sneed, Nicholas Palmer. Um, I saw the equipment coming into the pro shop. You know, there was a Sam Sneed or there was a Nicholas, um, the Golden Bear stuff. Um, I was always impressed by different variations. Um Player obviously sort of made an extra in my mind that you know it's about a young man, a young, you know, not very small in stature, who can achieve great things through his uh dedication, exercise, things like that. And I think I loved that idea, and I love the way the clinical stuff that Nicholas did, or the flamboyant of an Arnold Palmer and seeing bits of wonderful world of golf and stuff like that. So that was my sort of challenge was to sort of say, well, can I do that kind of stuff? I didn't have a crystal ball, I didn't know what was ahead of me in 10-15 years' time. So it was out there on the golf course, out there on the range, working reasonably hard. And school time obviously was uh whatever time I had off um hitting balls on the football pitch, uh, which was a kind of a no-no, but I was allowed to do it because I was at least safe compared to some of the other kids. Um so that was the you know, it wasn't um going to college or universities um learning the trade. It was just built around playing golf with the members and uh the challenges of obviously uh amateur stuff um coming into junior sections, uh under under 18s and under 15s, local stuff. So you just gradually over time you get uh aware of being away for a couple of days, um, been having to driven to various tournaments as well, because obviously I wasn't allowed legally to drive a car, and I'm sure the Tiger Woods and that would be driven around here, there, and everywhere to play various uh golf tournaments and things. So tournament stuff was started at a very early age, and then you move up into the kind of later on, sort of 1617. I'm playing international matches for England at the time as an amateur, and you're playing against other countries, uh, all taken care of. So you're learning um play match play, you're learning to stroke play, you're learning to golf about yourself, um, playing in other countries and what they do and don't do. So you get a good mental picture of what professional golf is all about. And at the age of 19, uh, I think it was 1977 or something, I I termed professional golf.

Mike Gonzalez 12:15

Yeah, I think uh just looking at your extensive amateur career uh over, let's say, a f at least a five-year period of pretty high-level competition, maybe, maybe, maybe a little less, but uh uh we want to go through some of those accomplishments. I think uh the the way Bruce and I would like to start, and I want you to appreciate that Bruce and I do a lot of uh well, we do a lot of deep uh investigative work uh looking into one's background for these. And uh As we were looking at your record, uh we're looking at the 1974 Boys Amateur Championship. That was at Hoylake, you would have been about 16 years old. And it occurred to us as we looked at the final result in that match, we we wondered, what in the world happened? Well, we've come up with an answer, and we've got somebody that could uh help us explain what happened.

Toby Shannon 13:04

Uh hi, Sandy. It's Toby Shannon speaking. Oh, Toby Shannon. You obviously went on to far greater things than I ever did in the world of golf. Uh but I do have um very fond memories of the game that we had, which must be for 48 years ago now. Um I think you uh there's no doubt that you were a big favourite. Everybody uh expected you to win, including me. Um but as in sport, as happens very often in sport, sometimes the underdog wins. And I was very lucky that day. I had a good day, you had a bad day. Um and the long and the short of it was I managed to beat you, which was a massive surprise to everybody, not least of all me. Um what I would say though is you did get your revenge one year later. We played a game in the English amateur championship at Canton. We had a fantastic game and you beat me on the last screen. Um so I have no reason to find who was the better player. You've had an amazing career. Uh I've followed it with huge interest, as you can imagine. Um but I think the one thing that really strikes me is that you've never changed. Every time I heard you interviewed, it felt like it was the same person that I played against all those years ago. You you kept your feet on the ground um and you've never lost your for the game. And it's it really is uh great to have seen you have such a successful career over the years. I think back to all the people we play with, and you remember some of these people like Peter Hedges and Pat Garner, and no one ever had a bad word to say about you. So we're all equally delighted that you had such a fantastic uh career. So, Sandy, uh enjoy your chat with Mike Gonzalez. I'm sure he'll fill you in with how we know each other, and hopefully I'll see you again on the golf course before too long.

Sandy Lyle 15:06

Okay. So there you go. That was a good uh a good little interview, yeah. Well, I can very clearly remember that I got some food poisoning at about two days beforehand. And I was barking up on the golf course quite a few times, several days before I got to the final. And uh I can very clearly remember that uh my I suppose my head and my hands and my energy levels were about as rock bottom as they could be. So I just I was just going for the motions and I it just wasn't wasn't gonna happen at all. And Toby played very steadily, and I just played very badly at the same time. So it was a very quick, I think 10 and 9 or something over a period of two rounds of golf. So yeah, that was unfortunate for me. Um good for for Toby, but that was my excuse anyway. Uh it wasn't a technical breakdown with the golf swing, it was a technical with the food swing. The body. The body wasn't performing well at all.

Mike Gonzalez 16:15

Uh, to be fair, uh, Toby was quite up front as he shared that with me, that uh you had a bug, and uh that's maybe the reason why he was able to prevail. But anyway, uh he's a good friend, and uh he holds you in high regard. We just thought we'd start with that to have a little fun. But as you continue down through your record, uh, and uh uh you know, we may not have time to talk about each of these victories, but you won a whole bunch as an amateur player, didn't you?

Sandy Lyle 16:44

Yeah, there was um I was accumulating quite a good trophy cabinet back at home. We had to extend a little bit over a period of years. And by the end of the my sort of amateur career, that trophy cabinet there was all over the place. They were on top of the pelmet and the curtains, they were on the shelf above the fireplace, they were they were everywhere. I didn't really have a proper cabinet, but uh yeah, there was there were trophies and different various things all over the place. So I've had some pictures taken with some of the main ones uh in front of me. There was uh quite impressive. Uh yeah, I'd I'd you know if I had a chance to do it again, I would love to have another go at it, but uh obviously it's not going to happen. But um, you know, the trophies were lacking up, and your confidence is obviously racking up as well. Um so I think I was about as as well prepared, ready for the the big turn to turn pro uh back in 77.

Bruce Devlin 17:41

Sandy, pri prior to uh turning pro, you had a great experience in uh 1974 at the age of 16. You talk about all the professional golfers that you watched and read about. Uh did you get a chance to play with any of them at the Open Championship in 60 in 74?

Sandy Lyle 18:02

Yeah, I did. Um as far as the the practice round was Gary Plair. Um I saw on the starting list for the practice round. Uh I don't know if it was a Tuesday, Wednesday, I can't remember. There was a gap that had Gary Plair at it. I thought, well, I'll just, you know. Put my name. That's a name I know. I was on the age of 16, and I'd uh just qualified for the open at Lytham. So I gave it a shot, and yeah, he was uh, you know, Gary's as his usual. He likes to know where you've been or what you're doing, and good future, and things like that. And it was also fun to play with him as well, because somebody was one of my heroes in the game of golf, and uh have a chance to play with him. I suppose I had enough courage, and I suppose young bull, you just want to have a go at testing yourself as one of the best players in the world. So here's my chance, and I did too, and and then I played the open as well. But I didn't play with anybody uh name-wise um that would really other than I think fuzzy. I got fuzzy with the third round, which was a delight to play. And um I don't know if you're aware of fuzzy when he addresses the ball, he slides the club along so the ball's virtually off the hustle or off the shaft almost. So he was he did that on the first tee, whistling away, and he put the sort of six-iron down and slid the club, and woof, the ball went away. And I thought, was that a practice swing or was he just goofing around? That was him. Yeah, that was him. That was it, and then he whistled away. I mean, what a delight to play with. Um great ball striker. I mean, those finishing holes at Lytham in the wind, especially lights of 14, you know, he could hit three woods quail high, no problem, you know, just stood there, crouched down a little bit, hands low, and this funny position with this uh golf club address. So I'm just you know, I'm queering myself as well. You know, everybody's different. Yeah, there's never two swings the same. So, you know, it's what works is the important thing.

Mike Gonzalez 20:12

So, just for our listeners, uh Sandy's talking about the the open championship, which was contested at Lithum in 1974. You want to remind us of who won that open, Sandy?

Sandy Lyle 20:23

Gary Player.

Mike Gonzalez 20:24

Gary Player. Yeah. So you played with the winner.

Sandy Lyle 20:34

Good use of that as well with the Ping one iron, which was a casting one, which was a very popular uh uh iron at that time, because they're not even make one irons anymore now. So uh it's it's called metal something rather than that.

Mike Gonzalez 20:50

Well, just getting back to that uh amateur record that uh continued after that uh initial appearance of the open championship. You went on to win the Brabazon Trophy in in 1975 and 1977. That uh was the English men's open amateur stroke play championship. Yeah. Uh you won the Karas Trophy at Moore Park in 1975. That's English Boys Under 18 uh stroke play amateur championship, British Youth Open Championship, Berkshire Trophy at the Berkshire Golf Club, which uh uh uh also is a stroke play championship with British Youths in 1977. And this all uh of course leads up to uh you earning a spot on the Walker Cup team in in 1977.

Sandy Lyle 21:35

Yes, and that was uh Chinicox, and uh was uh going to be partnered with Peter McAvoy, who's a very good familiar name in the amateur ranks and playing off plus three, plus four for many, many years. And it was quite an interesting little story there that uh we got on the first T in the I think it was the foursons in the morning. And Peter said to me, Well, what ball have you got? And I said, Oh, I've got a Dunlop 65. And uh his face went white. He said, That's not a big ball, is it? And I went, Yeah, it's the big ball. It's the American size, the 168. He says, I don't use those balls, I use the British size one. So we've been out there for good how many days or weeks in some ways, um, practicing, and and we never talked about pairing who's gonna use the big ball, who's gonna use the small ball. But we had to make a very quick decision on the first tee as which ball we're gonna use before we even tee off. And he's never used the big ball, so I had to back off and use the small ball, which is uh kind of strange when he'd been using the big ball for probably five or six years at that time. Why there was a huge difference between the large-size ball um compared to the small one uh they have in those days. Huge big difference. The big ball's advanced an awful lot more now, and it's its flight characteristics are a lot better. But the large ball was a beast to try and uh get around, say, Lynx golf courses and playing in the wind. Uh, it's not much fun, but it's it's a better ball now than it was. Better materials, better design, and it's moved on ahead. But there's no such thing as a small golf ball now, everything's all the same size. But it was a a big change and uh for me for going to the small ball in a Walker Cup match. I'm not saying you know, we lost our match in the morning because we went to the small ball. It was just one of those things that popped up on the first team where you've got to make your mind up.

Bruce Devlin 23:43

And I think, Sandy, I think uh I think in 77 that was the uh last year where you from a professional standpoint that you could use both balls or either one. And it was uh I think 78 when when the world went to the 1.68. 68, yeah.

Sandy Lyle 24:02

Yeah, I think that was. Uh it it round about that time there was uh a uniform ball, and that was what it was going to be. And that was the American-sized golf ball, and I think it still stays to to this day.

Mike Gonzalez 24:15

What do you remember about uh your first impressions of Shinnecock at that young age?

Sandy Lyle 24:21

Well, uh way too green to be sort of a lynx golf course. Way too, you know. They say, well, this is the news you're gonna get in America to a lynx golf course, and uh, it was way too green. And fairways, the uh the ball sat down a bit with the small ball on the fairways, not so easy to hit the long irons or pick them as clean. And the heavy, heavy rough, which is not really a lynxy type uh but it does have the lynxy type wind there. Obviously, I'll give given the do there, and there's some hills and some blind shots and second shots, and there's uh got to drive the ball well. But I'm used to playing on a lithum course where the grass is browny color and the ball's running about 40 yards, and yeah, it's not really you'd say it's it's a it's got the wind to be links, but it's not a links golf course. It's a little nearer, but uh probably about a six and a half out of ten, I would say, as far as a links golf course. Yeah, I agree.

Mike Gonzalez 25:20

Of course, the U.S. side featured uh some names that our listeners would remember too. Jay Sigal, who's one of the greatest American amateurs we've ever had, Scott Simpson, who went on to major championship fame, and of course Fred Ridley, who now uh is top man at at Augusta National.

Sandy Lyle 25:35

That's right, yeah. Uh we I think that our match uh played against Jim Fort and Vance Hefner, which are other names that were I know Hefner's passed away about six years ago, but uh I don't know what about Fort is now, what he's doing, or whatever. He seemed a very uh I think he uh played in the the uh US Open men's match play virtually the following week after Shinnikot and did very well in that. I don't know if he won it or he was in the top quarterfinals or something. So he seemed like uh a type of player would go forward in the game of golf as far as uh playing on the professional tour. I think he obviously did turn professional, but uh didn't materialize as much as we thought it was gonna do.

Mike Gonzalez 26:24

Bruce and I are always fascinated to hear the stories of um what you fellows went through in your decision to turn professional. Why don't you take us back to those days in the thought process?

Sandy Lyle 26:36

Um Well, obviously the target was with my father was Walker Cup. Uh the best you can do is in amateur golf, uh the peak anyway, the gold medal is to get Walker Cup and then make a decision from there onwards. I think Rory McRoy turned virtually straight away after Walker Cup and never looked back after that. Um, myself, um it was for me quite an easy decision because there was nothing else in my background. I wasn't a reader, I wasn't a lawyer, I wasn't a whatever, a builder. It was just golf, golf, golf, golf, and decision was there made for me. It was take it on as another challenge to move up to the professional ranks. And I was gonna get some I had really very little money um put away at the time. Um when I won the qualifying school at Foxhill, which is just south of uh the main of London, uh southwest, um I won that uh £300, which is about $500, and that about doubled my bank balance at that time. But when I turned prior, I I got a deal with Hawkesham Park, they were gonna put a bit of money up front, and I got some money up front from uh Dunlop with equipment and clothing and the golf ball, all three basically, which is very little money compared to what they make nowadays in far as contracts, but it was it sort of gave me a bit of confidence that um I'm gonna get some backing. And uh so manager-wise, there was a Derek Pillage or McCormacks at the time were floating around as golf managers, and um Mark McCormack seemed a possibility, but Derek Pillage was the one that I chose in the end, really because my dad knew of him uh from Glasgow area and gave some of Derek's first lessons in golf. And Derek Pillage had a history with Brian Barnes, Ewan Murray, you might hear on the on the things. Um there was uh Tommy Horton. Uh there was about uh about 10 or 12 of the of the uh called the Golfing Lions. We had a sponsorship by British Caledonian Airlines, and we were called the Golfing Lions. So I was really traveling around as a um as a team in some ways, traveling with British Caledonia Airways, traveling around together under the same roof with the manager. So it all kind of fitted quite well at the time. Um then, of course, unknown to me, within about the second year on the European tour, I uh won the money list with a grand total of £39,000. Won the money list in Europe, and things started to um happen from there. Sevy was buzzing around, he was making a name for himself about a year before me. So there was a challenge, and Faldo was a year older than me. So there was um there were three three big names that were floating around. Brian Barnes obviously was playing quite a lot of golf in Europe at the time. So uh I had some plenty of competition to play against. But after so many years, um, you know, things weren't moving ahead that much as far as um contract-wise. So we had to look for, well, I had to look for some a bigger name in management side, which McCormack had. And um they really controlled a lot of European golf and um as far as the television rights and who gets what, who gets to play in certain tournaments, and some overseas players, you know, getting upfront money to play, kind of things like that, and I was getting absolutely zero. So I thought, well, and if you can't beat them, we'll have to join them, kind of scenario. And uh so around about 85 when I won the open, it was probably very good timing. Yeah, I was with Mark McCormack's, and then I think the whole game, as far as um getting contracts uh with uh Turnbury, uh there was a whiskey company called Ballantines I was with. It all started to you know get into the limelight, the big stuff now. And I won the money list again, I think it was 80, 81, bum, bum, bum, bum. So things were looking good, and I was playing in major tournaments then overseas and also in Europe as well. So that was the it was a kind of slow start as far as the pro. It happened quickly. You know, we thought maybe a five-year plan that you maybe after a few years you get used to the golf courses, get used to the lifestyle. You've gone from amateur golf playing three months, four months of the year to now professional golf, you're now doing 10 months. You know, it's a lot of traveling, 36 tournaments in a year or 31, that kind of scenario. That's a lot. Um, it's a lot, it's a big change, you know, for traveling. A lot of Europe and then Africa, and then obviously doing well in Europe. I was getting invitations to go to the PGA or go to the Masters or you go to the US Open. So you can't do those just an odd week. You've got to plan ahead and get out there and play various tourments beforehand and acclimatized, time-wise and weather-wise. So there's a lot going on, and it gets tough as you travel. You know, I can see with a young tennis star just retired at the age of 25, and you know, that's amazing. But um, you know, it's uh it's it's hard on the body. And I wasn't born with a a beautiful golf swing long and rhythmic. I was a working type golf swing. It was a Litovino golf swing. It was it it was my swing, and it needed quite a lot of tuning every so often, but uh it's uh it got me to some places where I couldn't think about you know 20 years before I turned pro. It's all been a good uh it's been a good experience, and uh Europe's been a good baseground to get me get me going uh as far as confidence level, winning in uh winning in Italy, uh, winning in Spain, winning in France, uh winning in Sweden. Um so I won in all those sort of places, and uh they're all different and they all have their their merit. And uh we go from there. So next question.

Mike Gonzalez 33:18

Yeah, well I I think it'd be good to just sort of recap your uh your professional record for our listeners, and then let's come back to the point you were making, which I think was talking about how the European Tour prepared you for the next big step. Uh because it does these careers do tend to come in steps, don't they, in terms of accomplishment and experience. Uh for the record, uh Sandy Lyle, as Bruce mentioned earlier, 30 professional wins, including six PGA tour victories. He had 18 wins on the European Tour, which is tied for 12th all time, uh, one European senior tour win as well. He spent 167 weeks in the official World Golf Ranking uh top 10 from its introduction in 1986 all the way through 1989. And uh what we thought we would do is is just recount uh some of these key wins throughout your career. Obviously, we're gonna talk about the majors as well. Uh, but in addition to wins, he was the Sir Henry Cotton rookie of the year in 1978 on the European Tour. Of course, Henry Cotton was a three-time open champion. Uh the European Order of Merit, uh, which you'd referenced, uh, won that three times in 1979, 1980, and 1985. Sandy won two majors, of course, the 1985 Open Championship at Royal St. George's and the Masters that we've alluded to in 1988. And then uh uh let's just talk, uh go back to the beginning. Let's talk about that first professional win. I think that came, if I'm not mistaken, at the 1978 Nigerian Open. Is that right?

Sandy Lyle 34:55

Yeah, yeah, Nigerian Open. There's an eye opener, if ever there's one, you know, from you're going from a plush land, a partland golf course in Shropshire to something it's on Browns. Um Brown's greens is basically sand and oil greens. And you can smell the petroleum off the greens and the uh the you can smell it in the sand, and uh it's a different style. There was a lot of brown grass everywhere. Um, not particularly long golf course. Browns actually are very good, not very big greens. Um they're plateaued a little bit like a saucer upside down, they're small and quite firm. And the hotter the sun gets in the afternoon, actually, the slower the greens get. And you know, if you golf orientate and you're used to shop making and that, you've seen a very small green from a long distance out, say from 150, just that. It looks about the size of a postage stamp. And you can't land it short because it's on a bit of a hill, it just stops dead. You try and pitch it from a high loft, like a nine-iron or whatever, and it breaks through the loose sand on the top and then hits the hard pan underneath. So the ball benches about six foot in the air and disappears into the shrubbery the other side. So you've got to come in low. Now you're trying to come in low from a small green or brown, it's not an easy task. So it's a whole different uh style of playing because it gets sticky in the afternoon. Uh the holes get bigger. I must admit, the holes do get a bit bigger by the afternoon. So you actually pray to get a late starting time because the holes start to fold in a little bit because they drag mat it and they drag mat it over the top, over the top, get rid of the feet mark and get rid of the ball marks. So the holes do get a bit, the the edges of the holes get a bit sort of uh I saw as uh softened. So a lot of players, the the regular players, who go around there and 21, 24 putts per round easily, because of the size of the greens, the size of the holes. So putting actually is quite a good experience, but to actually play the golf course is a whole new experience because of the style you have to try and adapt to. And I wasn't familiar with that kind of thing, but you you learn quickly. You watch the locals and how they do it, and you you ask questions, and it's it's another way of an experience. And I had something like 61, 63 in the first two rounds, and then uh not so good on the finishing two rounds, but I think I was on a playoff against Michael King, which is uh E-turn pro, and he's at Sunningdale, and I still see him most years when I play at Sunningdale, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 37:51

Yeah, well, Bruce, uh sand greens certainly have come up uh with a lot of our uh guests, including uh Gary Plair. I remember him talking about these. And for our listeners who haven't played Sand Greens, uh it is an oil and sand mixture, and the the main reason well, there's two main reasons. One main reason is you don't want the green to blow away. Right. That's right. And it provides a pretty nice putting surface once you're able to use your little smoothing tool.

Sandy Lyle 38:15

Yeah, I mean, it does. I mean, you don't have to worry about grain. And if somebody hasn't uh say drag mapped it very well, you can see the trace of the ball and what it what it's doing. So you can learn by looking at the movement of the ball and how it's left a little rut on the green, and you can follow that. And so, yeah, it's uh it makes good scoring, and it is fun, yeah. But then you're also trying to make a living doing it as well, and that heat is you know, it's away into the 90s, and uh and humidity is very high up there as well. And the old school um were afterwards in say in the clubhouse, and that they were drinking star beers and stuff like that, and you know, they were fine. But we were told we went out there that you've got to you know stay to the uh soft drinks and da-da-da-da, and they're easy to drink. But he didn't mention about the ice. So some of the young players were having ice in their drinks, and the ice with the water has got bacteria, and the the uh the older guys, the more experienced guys drinking the star beer were fine all week, but some of the young ones I can imagine were not in a good state by the end of the day. They were having uh trips. Yes.

Mike Gonzalez 39:35

Yeah. So what was the what was the winner's prize that week, do you remember?

Sandy Lyle 39:40

Uh I think it was close to about £3,000, which is not bad. Not competitive, but at the time, you think I won the money list in the 79 with £39,000. And this was a £3,000 check or £285 or something, about £3,000, which is it should have more than doubled my bank balance at that present time. So I was very happy with that.

Bruce Devlin 40:07

So, Sandy, after after that victory there in 1979, uh, you broke into a victory in the uh European Tour, uh, not only once, but you won three times that year. One at the Avis Open, the Scandinavian Open, and the European Open Championship. That was a pretty good start in the European Tour.

Sandy Lyle 40:28

Yeah, I think when you when you have those kind of things in in one year, the the three wins, including the European Open, uh that was the big check was the European Open. I think that was close to about £21,000, which has just been raised that particular year. And uh that really helped me on the way to win the money list uh that particular year. So that big prize money made a huge boost, and I think I beat Sam Torrens by some silly amount, like about £50 or something like that. So um, yeah, when in the European Open was a biggie. Um the story behind that, I think it was uh Turnbury. It was and uh I'd won the week before in the Scottish, I think it was Scottish Professional Championship, which was only just down the road. But the whole two weeks that I won, uh STV, which is Scottish television, were actually on strike. So I didn't I didn't get as much coverage of golf as I was probably should have been allowed in some way. So it was a bit annoying for me because if you win those you know two in a row, beating Sam Torrance in the playoff and uh winning the money list and European Open, it would be nice to have full coverage of the uh Scottish television. But it wasn't to be, but you know, a win's a win. And I think if any can it wins tournaments, um you know it's all about momentum in the end and confidence. You know, sure. There's lovely ball strikers out there in press you on the range and think, oh, how am I going to beat this guy? But it's all about how much momentum you have and how much confidence you have within yourself and relying on your your trusty old goalswing to pull you through.

Mike Gonzalez 42:10

That win at Turnbury was uh pretty comfortable coming in, I guess. You won by seven, so you must have been somewhat relaxed uh walking down that last fairway.

Sandy Lyle 42:19

It had won a remarkable start. I think the start just broke the back on all the players. I had six birdies in the first seven holes uh at Turnbury, and uh I know Bruce has probably played Turnbury before.

Bruce Devlin 42:32

Yeah.

Sandy Lyle 42:33

But uh it's not an easy kind of first seven or eight holes, and you have six in the first seven. Um that just broke the back of the of the feeling. Howard Clark was playing behind me, and he had like a one-shot or two-shad or something like that. You know, Howard Clark was one of the big names in golf that you really had to sort of keep an eye on. If it wasn't Sevy, it'd be Howard. If it wasn't Harrow, it would be Faldo. If it wasn't Faldo, it would be in Wosnham. You had to keep an eye on. So um that just uh that kind of start was uh almost freaky. You know, I couldn't. I played the um second, third, fourth, fifth hole, which is a kind of dog leg, slightly almost a par five, a long par four, and it was playing into the wind. And I hadn't hit particularly very good t-shirt, and I got jammed in the corner of a bunker. I can only move the ball and it tugged it left about 80 yards because of the lie. And I was way up in the sand dunes, about 80 yards from the pin, thinking, how am I gonna get even a partner out of this? Or even a bogie would be quite happy because I'm in the thick stuff and I'm 80 yards from the green, and I've got a virtually no green to play with, and uh not in the can for a three. So these these are these things. Well, you know, it happens, but it's happened right now. I've just had my six birdies or five birdies in a row. Now I've just chipped in. And we've got a power three coming up, which is 235 yards or something in that region. And I made Birdie there as well. So it was like boom, boom, boom. Here we go. I should have really actually that day I shot 65 in the end. And I missed endless putts in the back nine for birdies. Plus a three putt thrown in for 65. And it could have been one of those rounds 59 was on the cards, but it didn't materialize because you've got to at some stage start thinking, you know, I can't keep attacking like this. It could be a bit too dangerous. I could have a bad number if I'd be too bullish about the whole uh attacking it too hardly and then getting into trouble. So I think the last sort of six holes was more conservative golf rather than keeping the momentum going. But that was one of the rounds I really felt I could have I could have broken uh 60 round there. But in the end, you know, a win win by six, seven shots um to win the money list as well at that time European open was uh a big achievement. And I think actually after that, I had to drive down to the Midlands, which is like a seven-hour drive, and um met the my dear mum and dad, and had some fresh clothes and had some food, and then and I drove down then to London to go ready for the Ryder Cup. And wearing my shirt and tie and dad-da-da-da, all looking very official, and you know, I've had a big old trip going down, got a lot of press things to do before I left Turnbury and uh drive big drive and then drive down to London. Uh Mark James and Ken Brown were in a pair of gym shoes and stuff like that. It's like we're not supposed to be like that, we're supposed to be dressed up. So I managed to I've just come from the other side of the country, uh, driven down myself, which is quite a long way. Managed to get some uh clothes and head down to the Rydy Cup and and put on a shirt and and blazer and look the part and ready to go. And and I see Mark James the first person I biked into, and he's got a pair of gym shoes on and an open t-shirt, and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

Mike Gonzalez 46:15

Well, you know, that was that was just before Tony Jacqueline got involved and made sure you guys were properly kitted and and transported and so forth, wasn't he?

Sandy Lyle 46:23

Yeah, definitely, yeah. Uh it was all um five-star for Ryder Cup from there onwards. Um I think I think he made the big change. I think he not a lot of people wanted to be a Ryder Cup captain. You know, and uh and um Tony sort of took up the invitation, but he says only in one condition. We're gonna travel like proper five-star players. Uh hence why we're going out this way. We're gonna have the proper sweaters, we're gonna have decent clothing, we're gonna have golf bags that don't have stickers on it, and they they start and wash off after one rainstorm. We're gonna have proper bags with stitching and and look the part, and he definitely changed that around. And uh my first Ryder Cup was being involved um with Europe. And so we had uh Sevi and some of the Spanish golfers joining the team, including Michael King that I just mentioned from Sunningdale. So we were we felt a lot better team to play against the Americans, and it was uh I could see the writing on the wall was was getting closer and closer. Maybe not gonna happen in the early years, but um later on as I was getting towards my fifth and sixth sort of Ryder Cup, um there was a chance um they were gonna win at some stage.

Mike Gonzalez 47:46

Yeah, no question. And uh we'll come back to uh some of the Ryder Cup experience. Uh let's just go back to the European tour and the lead up to coming over and playing a little bit more on the tour in the in the States. You had a series of wins in the early 80s, uh great win at a great track in Wales at the Welsh Classic in 1980. Yeah.

Sandy Lyle 48:06

Yeah, that was that would be quite funny because we returned to the uh to the golf course, uh Royal Port. Uh is it Royal Port Call? It was Royal Port Court, yeah.

Bruce Devlin 48:15

Yeah, yeah.

Sandy Lyle 48:16

There was a story with that one uh about three years ago. I was playing the British Open Seniors there. And I wasn't I couldn't quite remember if I'd played this golf course. The the name seemed to ring a bell, but I wasn't sure. Miss the Cut in the Open, and I went down early from Burkdale, I think it was, and uh arrived in the clubhouse, and to be welcomed by one of the old members says, Oh, welcome back, Sandy. And I go, I played here. I wasn't sure if I played it. Oh, yes, you did. You won the Coral Welsh Classic back in 81 or something. And you pointed up to the score up to the board, so there's your name on the board there to prove it. You you actually won here. So I thought, oh, oops.

Mike Gonzalez 49:03

Oops, yeah, that was 1980.

Sandy Lyle 49:06

1980, 81, whatever it was, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 49:09

Yeah, yeah. And uh, you know, a series of other good wins you had the 81-82. You won uh you won in France over Longer, you won uh uh uh in Bingley St. Ives Bradford by two over Faldo in the Lawrence Bartley invitational. You won that uh back to back, didn't you? Because you beat Pinero the next year, didn't you? Yeah.

Sandy Lyle 49:28

The interesting story you're talking about Royal Porth calling, and I was just thinking that was the first week that uh Dunlop came out with a new ball, the the DDH. And uh the DODECA heed, I think it stands for. This is really the simple patterns they have nowadays with the modern ball uh uh type that's used in various other companies. And uh I was given the grand total of three balls on the uh the start of the week. And uh I thought this was really to try. There were there were there were legal balls to hit. I mean, I just thought I'll just try them on a pro am and then you know, yeah, this is good. It feels like I'm almost cheating. This ball flies through the wind, it does this, does that. Well, I used those three balls all week at Royal Post Court. Some got more than one round of golf because it's a certain cover. I have no other balls to back up on, so it had to be these balls are nothing. I hope I don't lose any in the way around. I'm in deep doo-doo. So uh so I did use three balls for the whole four, well, five rounds, I suppose, the pro-am and stuff that thrown in. So that's uh quite an interesting little story on the golf ball and the durability of it as well. But it it almost felt like I was cheating in some ways, but the way the ball just sided its way through the strong winds, and because port calls right on the links. I mean, you are in the windy area. And if you don't control your rock there, you're a big dude.

Mike Gonzalez 51:00

Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends until we tee it up again for the good of the game. So on everybody.