Sandy Lyle - Part 3 (The Ryder Cup)

Mike Gonzalez 0:16

So as a European standy, would you say that the two you won, the Open Championship and the Masters, would be the two you most would have wanted to win?

Sandy Lyle 0:25

Oh, by far, yeah. By a long way. You know, when you as a young boy and you see them out, and good players, the big names, uh, if it's gonna happen, but it you know, it happened to me. And um I'll always cherish that moment. And then to win the to the masters as well. It was uh and I always felt comfortable playing the course. Yeah, that was the thing. You know, if you feel comfortable playing the course, and you know you're gonna return maybe the next year, not always guaranteed, but you can return a few times to play it. That's a course I feel I can do well on.

Bruce Devlin 1:12

So, Sandy, after that uh great master's victory, you your 1988 wasn't finished either. You as you've always said, you're playing the European Tour, you went back and won the Dunhill British Masters that year, beating Nick Faldo and Mark McNulty.

Sandy Lyle 1:29

Yes, yeah. Um what was the name of the golf course? I've got it in my mind, I can't remember it right now. Wolburn. Wolb Woburn, yeah. Yeah, Woburn, yeah. Yeah, it was an interesting final round there with Faldo because uh he wasn't playing particularly well, and I kept following with bad shots as well. It was one of those who's gonna win this tournament. It was uh, you know, if he skidded T shot, I went in topped the T-shot, along the ground kind of scenario. It was just like, you know, it was a bing bong. And then the last hole, I was so negative on the driver, I think I hit like a five-iron off the tee, it was a power five oh, but it was quite bouncy. So I just hit a five-iron, I think it was five iron, six iron, and then wedge it in and one by one shot or something in the ends. But it's not the kind of stylist finish you would think, well, he's gonna hit a driver 375 yards, and you hit an eight-iron into the green, and thank you very much. No, it was five iron off the tee. I was so uh because it's all in trees. You're in a very, very tree-type golf course, and it's bouncy. And you could really mess up with a bad T shot, lose a ball, out of bounce on the left. There was all sorts of scenarios. So I thought the only best thing I can do is tee up with a five-iron and well, it went about 220, 230 yards. It wasn't like it was going to go in about 180 or it's 170. So yeah, it did good enough distance, and I did I did what I had to do, as you know, and then I played for the wide part of the ferry with the second shot and had uh sort of like 110 yards in for the third shot. So, you know, I can do that easy enough. I mean, Vandervel could have learned from that, couldn't he?

Bruce Devlin 3:03

Yes, he could have. Boy, isn't that the truth?

Mike Gonzalez 3:07

Let's go on to the world match play uh championship. Uh that was later that year, and uh Sandy, I'd probably put your record in that event up against just about anybody, because in addition to the victory in '88, uh, you also did quite well four other years with runner-up finishes.

Sandy Lyle 3:23

Yeah, I've been uh match play uh five five finals, I think it is. But I think the one that really sticks out in my mind is not so much winning it after five years, was uh was drawn out against Faldo. Um I don't know which year it was, but I was drawn as the two British guys to play against each other. And I was I had one of those morning sessions, it was two rounds of golf at that time, and um I was I got to the last holiday to five iron into about four feet, looking like I'm at least gonna go from six down back to or from five down back to four, which would have been quite nice. Fouled away the green butt hole from like 50-60 feet for an eagle, and I miss mine, so I go to six down, and um not looking good for lunch. I didn't really enjoy lunch very much at six down, and uh went out in the afternoon with uh a different putter, back my old favourite putter, and um had to hold about an eight-footer on the first hole to save going uh seven down, so I managed to stay at six down, and to cut a long story short, uh Faldo holed a bunker shot uh from almost an impossible place at sixteenth, otherwise he would have been beat three and two. So a big turnaround. Yeah, so he holed a bunker shot, and then obviously I missed a putt for the birdie from about 12 feet, which I was a little cheated off about and had to go down 17th. And um he got a ruling, get the ball dropped in the tree because the signboard was in the way, and it looked like he was gonna get a win or a half out of the hole. I wasn't particularly playing the hole very well, but I hold about a 40-footer for a birdie to game over the things two and one of. But uh there was a big turnaround, big, big turnaround, and that was probably one of the most memorable matches I've had on an afternoon from being in the doldrums in the morning, knowing that well, can I just go out there and survive and not get beaten by Mr. Falder by 10 and 9 of like a Toby Shannon sort of thing.

Bruce Devlin 5:39

Right.

Sandy Lyle 5:40

And uh so it wasn't, it turned out in favor for me in the end. But um, I'm sure Nick will remember it very clearly as well. But it's just momentum again, you know, match play. You know, I I didn't look like I was gonna do any good, and then all of a sudden I started putting birdies in, and when he made bogeys, I made pars and won a hole, and when he made pars, I made birdies. So it all happened very equally, and that's match play. You never know until uh the fat lady sings.

Mike Gonzalez 6:08

Yeah, yeah. So we got we got uh uh a bit more we want to cover with you, Sandy. So uh uh anxious to get to team play and some other things, uh, but you did have three more wins on the European tour, uh and now we're sort of 1992-ish. You're age 34. What happened to your form?

Sandy Lyle 6:28

Um I can only see I think 20 odd years later on, or 30 years later on, you can kind of look at it and you can say, uh, you know, I started to do some changes with a swing. I think I got tired as well. I think the you know the mid-80s were busy, busy years, and I'm still playing in America. Um I got tired. Um, and then I can remember clearly when I played in LA, I've been out in the tour for about five or six weeks, and I I just lost a Calkovecca in LA, but not playing very well. And then I I lost in the playoff uh the Bob Hope, um, which was something I was a bit annoyed of. Uh so there was like a four-way playoff. I think Steve Jones won that particularly that week. Yeah. But the golf in LA wasn't good. Um started getting the blocks and not just not be able to clear or get the club phase squared impact, and you know, you just brush it off as like, alright, we'll get down to Florida swing coming up. Play Durell, you know, I'll get uh I'll dig it out of the dirt as we as you think you do. And played terrible at Durrell. And I went to see Jimmy Ballard, who is sort of you know, sort of coaching me at the time, Jimmy, and do a bit of this and change and that. And so I played the Honda the sort of following week, didn't do very good in that, missed the cut, and then Bay Hill. I played not very good and missed the cut. So there was a momentum thing, and confidence was just um rock bottom. And it you know, it lingered a lot more than and I thought it would ever do. You know, I always thought, oh yeah, we're digging out the ground, we'll turn it around in a month and two months, but it went on and on and on. And I suppose someone like Ian Baker Finch could sort of maybe give you an idea that you know you go through 32 torments in a row of missing the cut, which is extreme, but it happens. Um, I had no idea. You know, I I I wasn't drinking anymore, I wasn't an alcoholic, I wasn't taking drugs. Um I probably need looking back 25, 25 years, 30 years later on, I think I should have just taken some time out. Would be the biggest thing. Just take time out, go and reset your goals, um, do a bit of work on your goal swing, but just relax. I just started to try and work harder because things weren't going very well. The idea was to work harder, and it obviously didn't work in my case.

Mike Gonzalez 9:07

So for our listeners, uh, you know, any of anybody that plays golf recognizes even at an amateur level how fickle this game can be. Oh, yeah. But uh, we're talking about a guy who Sevi Biasteros was once quoted as as saying, This guy is the greatest God-given talent in history. If everyone in the world was playing their best, Sandy would win and I'd come second.

Sandy Lyle 9:31

Yeah, and I've I still get embarrassed when I hear that now and then, but uh it is true, it does come from Sevi's uh own mouth, and he's not one for giving a lot of compliments away to certain players or whatever, as you know, Sevi's very much himself, he's his own boss. But to come from Sevi's very special, you know, and I've played against him and with him from an early age, and uh he's come on top, I've come on top, we've shared our you know, tears, we've shared our friendship, and um to come from him was um you know one out of a thousand that came out the blue, and uh and it's been mentioned quite a few times, and I I still get sort of my hair gone back of my neck when you think about it, but uh that's it. You know, I didn't um I didn't promote that to make him do it, he did it on his own accord.

Mike Gonzalez 10:22

Before we get to team play, I I want to uh take you back to one more master's memory, because I believe in 1986 you played in the final round with J.W. Nicholas.

Sandy Lyle 10:33

Yes, yeah, oh yeah, that was uh you know, you get memories uh as you get older, and some just stick in your mind. And uh not a lot of people remember who played with Nicholas in '86. And I've got to try and remind them that there's a little guy there with red trousers that you might see going past the camera every so often, but that that was me. And um I was a it was a great thing to watch. Um and you know, he was a he was age 46 at the time, so he's you know, he's not a spring chicken anymore. He's regarded as sort of over the hill at age 46. Well, he proved that wrong. That uh he played those last nine holes and and 30, I think it was, um, with majestic iron play, confidence. But one thing that really stuck out in my mind is his uh almost like your Bernard Langer type stuff. You know, he a bad shot was deleted quickly. Um his concentration was 100%, his his eye focus was good. He wasn't blinking away, looking at crowds, saying, You're in you're annoying me, or that it was a it was just like he was playing a practice round with at the Masters on the last round, and nothing changed speed-wise, uh breathing wise at all, even down to the last four or five holes where he knew he had to try and put a score in, and that's the tough one. You you got yourself in position, but you still got to finish the job off. And uh the 18th flag wasn't on an easy, easy pin, it was back right. And I think he was playing like a five or four iron for his second shot, and he knew he hadn't hit it right when he hit it. It was online, but he he was like you could hear him say jack, and uh it was only like two yards off from being perfect, and then he he putted to show how much he's in control of his hands and his breathing and his confidence, he putted from probably what 40-50 feet and left it about six inches short of the hole going in. So, you know, he's his control of his emotions were absolutely 100%, and that's the sort of thing that sticks out uh in my mind watching him performing, uh a man doing his business really good. And I get people asked me, were you nervous playing with him? Yes, I said I was a little bit apprehensive. They said I was more nervous about screwing up on his scorecard afterwards, and I was really nervous on that because you know I I don't want to be the one with the finger pointing. You got our man disqualified because you scored his scorecard wrong. So it just gives you a little point that it's not so much playing with him, but uh that's probably the only time that I'd really play with him in a tournament would be the 86 masses. But what a what a what a witness to to watch, you know, as a spectator, as a player playing with him. Um his mannerisms and um his thoughtfulness as well, because you know, quite often he could have easy putting from a foot and a half, two feet. He said, No, I'll I'll mark this because the crowd will be going silly. Yeah. So that's uh right. But it gives you an idea on the golf course how how sort of um things happen quickly. We've got to the 17th hole where he had that wonderful 12-footer putt downhill to another birdie, and that's that uh yeah, that picture it's been taken with him holding the hand up and da-da-da-da. Well, uh a few seconds before he actually hit that putt, we could hear rumors in the crowd, Sevi's in the water. Sevy's in the water. So I'm I'm because Sevy's playing the 15th at the time, and there's no trees there, so you just open space. You can see Sevy uh 160 yards away or something. And I look over to see if Sevy's in the water, and all I see him is is is finishing his follow-through. The ball's still in the air when they're saying Sevy's in the water. So that the speed of transportation as far as trouble was that quick that the crowd were going, oh he's in the water. They've obviously realized he's miss it the shot, he's in the water, but the ball's still in the air. I've not even seen him finish his follow-through yet. Boy, oh boy. So um I think Jack might have seen that too, and you could hear the whispers of the crowd saying Sebie's in the water. Not a good moment for him, but obviously pleasing for Jack.

Mike Gonzalez 15:05

Yeah, and and Bruce, uh, you saw Jack Nicholas up close quite a bit, didn't you, over your career?

Bruce Devlin 15:10

Yeah, he was uh I I was uh he's the one guy that I've uh played with that had, like you said, Sandy, complete control of his emotions. You could walk off the tee with him and talk about any subject while you're walking down the fairway. And when when he got into the area where he felt like he had to take control of his golf game, yeah, I mean it was just like a curtain come down, and he did what he had to do, and then you could talk with him again between there and the green.

Sandy Lyle 15:39

Yeah, so and he had his son Jackie carrying the bag as well, which is he was getting quite nervous the way around. Yeah, Nicholas, yeah, his son Jackie, yeah. Betty he was. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 15:49

So Sandy, at the top of the show, you sort of alluded to a little bit of your Ryder Cup experience, and uh for our listeners, kind of take them back to this era because uh you first appeared on a Ryder Cup team in 79. And uh, you know, I think a lot of people look back and and and see who was coming of age then, uh sort of the big five of European golf with Sandy Lyle and Nick Faldo and Ian Wosdham and Steve Vallesteros and Bernard Longer. And uh I just see that it's sort of the golden age of the Ryder Cup because uh it really was transformed from the time you started in 79 until uh really the last team you were on back in uh I guess it was 1987, it came full circle, didn't it? Because uh, you know uh the Brits and then the Europeans uh were losing pretty consistently up until that time. As you mentioned, you start out the first few years, you get a little closer, but you see the tide turning. Just take us through that whole era of Ryder Cup.

Sandy Lyle 16:51

Well, I mean, my first one obviously was 79, and um that was when Europe was involved. Um it was a big thing because it was always pretty much Great Britain and Ireland was always the Ryder was the Ryder Cup. Now it's going to be Europe involved. I think it was a good move. I think the Ryder Cup could have died of death before that, um, because it was just so one-sided. I mean, a small country of Britain and Ireland against America, it's not looking good on paper. And with Europe involved, I think it just balanced the books and it made it to what it is now. And uh, I could see that the matches were much closer. Um, I could see at the end of the week that America's only winning by one point or two points, so we were we were right up there, and I think it was only a matter of time. I think uh the tide would change that we'll we'll get a we'll get a victor because the the top four or five, like Sevy and myself, Aldo, you know, we were all young, and we're all comers of age, and the strength on the top end of the uh of the team are really good. We were still lacking the lower end, but with Europe involved, we had some good players that can still hold their own. Uh Constantina Rocker, you know, and Pinero, they were all want to challenge to play against some of the best players in in America. No matter if it was overseas or it was in in Britain, and the Belfry was one of the great big breakthroughs where it all all sort of unfolded that particular week.

Mike Gonzalez 18:26

Yeah, so you just going in succession, uh uh start at the Greenbriar, uh John Jacobs was the captain for the Europeans as he was at Walton Heath in 81. And then you go to PJ National, and uh while it what didn't turn out your way, uh Tony Jacqueline, as we talked about earlier, I think really changed the game. He was up against Jack Nicholas as captain for the U.S. side, and while it was a very, very close U.S. victory, uh it was quite clear to anybody paying attention that things were going to be different.

Sandy Lyle 18:58

Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things when Jaclyn took over, we did fly out on Concord, which was you know a nice little bonus to have. And um we didn't need the cashmere sweaters that much because it in in Florida Right.

Mike Gonzalez 19:15

I bet they were Springles.

Sandy Lyle 19:17

Yeah, the rest of the stuff was all good quality, the suitcases, the golf bags. So you you felt like you were in a proper team, you know, playing. Yeah, and it was really down. I mean, the tournament could have gone either way. I didn't have a particularly good week. Um, I lost to Calvin Pete in the in one in the singles. He just wore me down of his straightness. Um, didn't do very well in the foursoms. I think I was playing with Bernard Gallagher or whatever. Uh but so my record there, that thing wasn't great. I well, I'd have contributed a few points, but I didn't. But that's Ryder Cup for you, it's not a guarantee. But at the end of the day, it was right down to the base of the last hole between Lenny Watkins and Sam Torres. It was right there, bang. Yeah. Um so we couldn't wait really um for the next Ryder Cup to come along, which was going to be a few years' time at the Belfry. And it all unfolded really good for the and the crowd got excited as well, and the the noise and everything else, and it was uh quite a spectacle to see.

Mike Gonzalez 20:19

Yeah, and then you come back here, and uh now we're at Jack's place at Beerfield Village, and uh again it's it's Tony Jacqueline uh for the third time in a row, Jack Nicholas, and uh Lenny Watkins, uh which was one of our first interviews, Bruce wasn't it. Lenny Watkins describes this as the hardest loss of his entire career. He felt so bad losing for Captain Jack Nicholas at his place.

Bruce Devlin 20:46

Yeah, he sure did. He made a he made a strong point about that fact that uh they really wanted to win right there, but didn't happen.

Sandy Lyle 20:55

Well, in my memory, that that particular, I know we've actually won the Riley Cup at that time, to play with Nicholas and Tony, both big names in the game of golf, to um to win the Riley Cup in his home ground of Nicholas's, um, was my sort of highlight of the Riley Cup. Of all the Riley Cups I've played in, that was the one that really stuck out a million miles away. And I also contributed uh a few points for the team as well, which makes it even sweeter because I played with Langer and we played against Lanny Watkins and Larry Nelson. And both those two players have never lost in the Riley Cup matches. They have just got a hundred percent record until they met Langer and myself. And we got them in the morning time, I think it was the Forsums, and I don't know what the result was, but we won two and one or whatever it was, bum bum bum. And then lo and behold, in the afternoon in the in the better bulls, we get to the same pair to play against. And uh I think Larry Watkins will even talk about it to this day that he can't believe that in the better ball they finished the last five holes in five under and lost ground to Lacker and myself. He goes, I can't believe we lost that match.

Mike Gonzalez 22:17

No.

Sandy Lyle 22:20

I think we're one up playing the last hole or something, or maybe even all square playing the last hole. And it was almost dark in the evening time, and I did it into about six feet, really good shot. And it's getting dark. But Langer's still trying, he's like another Nicholas. You know, Langer's still putting these practice swings in, he's still focusing, he did that, and it's into about three and a half feet. So he's not giving up. And so Langer was probably the number one partner I've had in that particular week. It just worked so sweetly. And to play against two hot dogs that have never lost, it made it even sweeter again. And then obviously to to win the Ryder Cup and the home Grenad Nicholas, which was even sweeter again. And you know, nice to see Tony's got a winning speech to do rather than a losing speech. So that was that was the big turn for for me as far as the the way the Ryder Cup was gone. We we were heading the right direction, we got the good players, they're all playing well, and the lower end is still a little flaky, but we're you know, we're we're carrying them through.

Mike Gonzalez 23:28

Yeah, historic win for uh uh as it was the first win on US soil ever.

Sandy Lyle 23:34

Yeah, that was uh a lot of celebrations went on, I think, with the caddies and various things for the next several days. So uh to look back on it, it's still to me, I mean, I've played five Ryder Cups, you know, win or lose. Um that one I've played, I would I've actually been qualified for six, but I turned the sixth one down due to bad performances. Uh that was probably the hardest phone call ever made to Tony Jackman to say, look, I've given myself the last couple of weeks a chance, but I think the way it is, the way I'm playing, my confidence level, and I'll be shot. You're in a team as well. That's the thing. You're in the team. Yeah, and I knew that the other next team player was going to be Christy Connor Jr. He'd had a good year playing. So his confidence level is good. I said, Well, that's as nice a player as I want to see in the team, would be Christy Connor Jr. It's going to be his last year. He's a good Forsens player, he's a good guy to play with, he's entertaining, and whoever played with him will love to be with him as well. So I I forgo my position and let him have it. And as it was, he he did well. He he played against couples in the singles, and I think either he halved or he won a point. So it all came out good in the end. But um, yeah, the winning at uh Muirfield, I think, would be the highlight of uh of the Ryder Cup for me by a long way.

Mike Gonzalez 24:58

Yeah, so you had a chance to be side by side with your buddy as his co-captain in 2006. You never got your turn at captain. How how much does that hurt?

Sandy Lyle 25:07

No, I think it's something you can say, well, you know, it's the game of golf is never always perfect. It's never a smooth road. There is turnings here and there on the way through illness or for whatever things happen or a tragedy somewhere. I think you know, people say, well, you you should have had your chance. I should have had my chance, but it didn't, it didn't materialize. Uh, I think I was overseas quite a lot. Um, I didn't put myself down to be involved with a committee as far as um having meetings and things that went with and about rider cup or whatever. So I was almost uh alien from that. I think if you'd been in the committee and been involved a bit more, yeah, I think there would have been a good chance. But I always thought it was a bit fruitless for me because I'm playing in America most of the time, and I can't be there for all the meetings. So I unless like nowadays we can do everything from Zoom or do it on a so you couldn't do it then. That wasn't uh that wasn't feasible. So I think that part of it plays a big part. And if you look at all the past Ryder Cup captains, they've nearly always been in the Ryder Cup committee. If it's not Monty, if it's not that, it's it's uh Thomas Bjorn, it's not Thomas Bjorn, it's Darren Clark. If it's not Darren Clark, it's Mark James, if it's not Mark James, it's McGinley. I mean they've all been in the committee, the selection committee, and that's the way it's been. And I I haven't been in that selection committee. I could have been if I wanted to, but I was I sort of said, no, I'm you know, I'm committed to playing in America quite a lot. I'm gonna miss most of these meetings. So that's the way it sort of materialized, and I think at the end it sort of backfires on you. So that that's my sort of my sort of thing about the Ryder Cup. It's not because somebody's had a vengeance against me, it's not gonna happen. It's just the timing of it. I mean, why didn't Peter Alice or why didn't um Peter Roosterhouse be a Ryder Cup captain? Could have easily been, but when you've got Tony Jaclyn being a captain for three years, and I think uh Bernard Gallagher being a captain for three years, those spots become a little watered down. Um, why didn't Larry Nelson? We talked about it with a friend of mine just two days ago, that Larry Nelson not being in the Ryder Cup captaincy. I mean, there's somebody that's been in Vietnam, he's won major tournaments, he's a you know, he's uh he's a very nice person. No reason why he shouldn't have been a Ryder Cup captain, but never did.

Bruce Devlin 27:40

Right.

Mike Gonzalez 27:42

You had an opportunity also to represent uh your country in the World Cup and uh in the Dunhill Cup. Uh so quite a bit of team play uh in addition to the Ryder Cup. You played uh I should say you play on the uh uh European senior tour. You started at age 50 and uh and got a win in 2011. That was your first win in 19 years, that it depends.

Sandy Lyle 28:05

Well it's very easy to remember, it's the only win. Yeah, I've been I've been I've been a little disappointed on that side of it. But you know, when you you become the 50-year-old, you you're the youngster, as Bruce would know, you're the youngster when you turn and you expect big things. Yeah. And uh I got somebody called Langer up in front of me, which is he's a hard man to be. Man. And uh he wins most of the trophies and stuff. And uh if I was coming second, I'd be quite happy, but I wasn't even doing that. I just my my game is um just not sort of good enough to to win tournaments right now. Why it is? Uh is it confidence level? Yes, probably. Is it physically? I'm still physically okay. You know, I can still get the ball out there a good distance. So um, as I say, I'm not taking drugs, and I'm not drinking, I'm getting plenty of sleep, I'm doing all the right things, but not the results.

Mike Gonzalez 29:06

There you go. Well, you know, uh and I alluded to this earlier in terms of playing uh age-appropriate chefs, but you did go on to win uh uh two more majors, didn't you?

Sandy Lyle 29:18

British Out and Hickorys, yeah. Yeah, that was uh that just come with a friend of mine I do golf design with um and uh he had a whole bag of clubs on the side. He said, Oh yeah, I said, What are you doing with these? You know, Scott McPherson, his name. I said, What are you doing with these things? A little pencil bag with about six clubs in it. He said, Oh, I I play hickory every so often. Yeah, you want to come out, we go down uh Musselboro Golf Club, which is actually where the Oakmans played five years, just up the road in Edinburgh. So I went out there and uh I mean his are really old original ones. I mean they weren't nice, they were there, they were they were the line of the clubs were all wrong, and it it but it gave me a little insight to playing golf, hickory. And um word got around and he said, I've got somebody in America that makes good hickory clubs called Tad Moore. Now, Tore actually his history, you can you can put Tad Moore's name down on the and read about him uh if it's making putters for Wuzzy when he won the masters. He also gave a lot of information to Scotty Cameron how to design putters and how to make putters. So he's in his late 70s now, about 78, and uh he made figury clubs and still makes them to this day, as we speak now, in Alabama. So um he made the Australian Blade Irons, designed the Australian Blade Irons, which I won the Auckland Championship with. So he was working for Dunlop back in the 80s, and then he then I went to Mizuno later on. So I I kind of lost contact with him and until I started playing Hickory Golf, and he makes uh sort of frequency-matched hickory golf clubs. Um amazing. So he turns he he bought uh he bought the lathe that makes the hickory clubs, uh the shafts. I mean he turns them all himself, he buys the heads in and then uh fits the the shafts in. And so I've got a match set of hickory golf clubs from a sandwich through to a spoon cum driver. So there's about 11 clubs totally, from the spade spade mashing to a nibblick, all the different names, uh driving iron. Right. Um, but the the shafts are matched to to my strength as well, because I obviously want them a little thicker and a little bit more robust. So uh he matches the shafts up by putting a weight on a board and then flicking the shaft, and then obviously how much the shaft, if the shaft's very soft, it'll be very, very da da da da da da da da da da da da da. And if the shaft's very taut, it'd be like that. Stone age, stone age technology, but it it works. Um, there's a massive amount of torque on the shafts. You can hold on to the club head and the grip, and you can twist probably a three or four or five percent twist on it. That's what you call torque. Yeah, so it needs a little bit of confidence and knack and how to get the timing right, especially when you get in the rough, then the ball can fly out in all places. You've got a say a pitching wave, you're trying to maneuver it out of a heavy lie, it could go out anywhere. But um, yeah, I've played a couple of hickory tournaments, which is the British Open Seniors. Well, it's actually the British Open Hickory Championship, not really seniors, it's really it's all about women playing, boys playing, older players, pros playing. It's really an open open. And it's been played up in uh near Carnoosty. I can't remember the name of the golf course now. So I've played it twice.

Mike Gonzalez 33:01

I think Panmuro.

Sandy Lyle 33:04

Panmure, yeah. And I've played it uh, it's over two rounds. Uh I played it twice and won it twice. And uh I'll tell you what, it it's nerve-wracking. I knew I knew the one year I was only with another, because there's no scoreboard, you'd no idea what you what who's doing what and where, but you hear rumors that somebody's got a whatever, and you think, well, I'm only one over par with so many holes to go. Can I hold on to it? And uh yeah, it's nerve-wracking, very, very nerve-wracking, but uh also very pleasurable at the time because you're you're playing with something way back in the sort of 1820s, you know. It's uh the technology-wise. And I often, I mean, I when I go out now, I've I've got the plus twos on, I've got the socks up, I've got the I've got the proper shirt with the tie, I've got the waistcoat. I don't have the proper golf bag yet, but I've I looked the part now.

Mike Gonzalez 34:00

Well, I'll share this. I'll share this with you briefly. I I took delivery of my first set of sort of starter set of hickories uh two weeks ago. Okay. And uh I noticed as I hit them on uh you know on the practice tee that uh uh they didn't all behave alike.

Sandy Lyle 34:14

No, no, no, they're not.

Mike Gonzalez 34:16

As you know, as you know. So I sent a little note to Mr. Devlin and I said, All right, here's the weights, here's the swing weights that I'm seeing, here's the length and loft and and line and everything. And I said, How do I get these to behave a little bit more like each other? Yeah. So he gave me some suggestions and I got the lead tape out, and and you know, so I think I've got them more where I want them. Yesterday, as I was doing some of the preparation for our discussion this morning, I get a text and I start seeing all these pictures of this long putter being made for me. Because I putt with a long putter, and there's no way I could putt with a short one. Uh well, it was Tad Moore.

Sandy Lyle 34:55

Oh, is it Tad was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 34:57

Yeah, nice. I've I'm playing his clubs and he is making me an aluminum-headed long driver, sort of to the specs of the Scotty Cameron I use in terms of weight and and and you know, angle, and and so forth. So I'm really looking forward to it because he's coming this weekend. We have I'm gonna play in my first hickory tournament starting on uh Monday. Sounds good. I've my wife gave me some plus twos and so for Christmas. I don't know if they fit or not, but uh we'll see.

Sandy Lyle 35:25

Yeah, oh it's good. I mean, I I see I speak to him at least twice uh twice a year, and I will see him uh in about three or four weeks' time because of playing a tournament in Alabama. So he often pops down, so we always have a good old natter. Yeah, I mean he's still a golf enthusiast, and you know, I'm I'm a little saddened that there's nobody else really to take in place, you know. Uh when he if he snuffs it tomorrow. I don't think as far as I know he has a an apprentice that's gonna follow it on, you know, it'd be quite nice to to see those clubs. And I've got quite a few sets I've added. I must have about six sets of them now. That um they're almost like a PXG. No, they're not cheap, but yeah. But it's a lot of fun. You have them for a lifetime, you know. It's uh and it's interesting. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 36:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm going uh I'm going to the UK for a little golf this summer. I'll be over there for about five weeks, and I'm going to take my hickories over. And I intend to play uh Sandwich, Saint Inoduc, Presswick, Dornik, and the old course with hickories.

Sandy Lyle 36:34

And you can go off the forward T's as well.

Mike Gonzalez 36:38

Good.

Sandy Lyle 36:38

That's right. Good.

Mike Gonzalez 36:39

I'll need it.

Sandy Lyle 36:40

Yeah. Well, I I I just had a new driver delivered to me some years ago now uh in Alabama off uh off Tad. I've just had it. There's a deeper face one and it and I happened to be on the range at the time, and I was trying out, and I saw Langer across the other side with the uh the track man, and I said to Bernard, you wouldn't mind hitting this for me and just see what sort of results you get. So he hit one, and he actually hit it really good, like a kind of good height with lots of run on it, and he hit about six in the end, and there were really good hits with a modern ball, of course, because it was the range ball. Yeah, and he hit six good shots. So he ended up clicking on the uh the track man, and he was only down 10% on his distance. So you can imagine this German head sort of scratching. This is not possible. So the uh all that technology, you know, from complete opposite end of the scale, when you've got titanium and graphite and and longer shafts with a modern club to hitting something, it's much shorter, uh not say twice the weight, but a lot heavier. Uh he's probably using a 60-gram shaft. I've got a probably 200 and something gram shaft in the wood, yeah, and a smaller head, and only down 10%. So, you know. Interesting. Amazing.

Mike Gonzalez 38:05

That's pretty good. So tell us about that phone call you got back in the 2012 time frame that uh informed you that Sandy Lyle was going to be inducted with Peter Alice into the World Golf Hall of Fame.

Sandy Lyle 38:20

Yeah, that was uh that was something special. Um and Phil Mickelson, I think, was on that list as well. And uh very clearly you can you know, wait in the waiting room, that was about as nerve-wracking experience for me, because I'm not really a natural after dinner speaker like a ferrety, you can just go out and blurt for an hour and get well paid for it. I mean, I'm somebody that's behind the scenes, and all of a sudden I've got to stand up at a podium and um I'm looking at notes and that, and I've got to you know perform. And uh and I was looking in the waiting room, and I think Peter Ellis was off first, and Mickelson. And uh I'm looking around the room and I can see in the far corner, Mickelson's got a whole handful of notes, and he's flicking these notes rapidly, and he's looking up in the sky, and he's muttering words like he's trying to remember things and that. I've got my notes, and I'm just kind of going through them every so often. And I'm looking over at Peter Alice, gin and tonic, no no no notes. I'm looking no notes, I'm looking at his hands to see if he's got a couple of suggestion notes on his hands, nothing, nothing at all. Never had something in his pocket, but drinking a gin and tonic, quite happy, yacking away with his wife and Nancy. Good, he's I know he's a genius when it comes to that kind of thing. But I thought you've got to have some sort of backup somewhere. I'm looking all over his hands and you know, how do you do it? This kind of thing, and off he went, and he brought the crowd down to complete hysterics by the end of his speech. So uh he did well in the end, and I got through it, nothing brilliant, but uh it's an experience that um and also to be recognized, really, more than else. You know, I've gone for a bit of a quiet spell for quite a few years, and all of a sudden, you know, not winning tournaments, but also to be recognized as a World Golf Hall of Fame, and uh you know I I cherish that an awful lot.

Bruce Devlin 40:25

Yeah, I bet you do. And the in 1987 you got uh MBA for MBE, I'm sorry. Which is uh which is another great uh that's another great thing for uh to happen to a person.

Sandy Lyle 40:40

Every every year the Queen has a list of people who get either Sir Nick Faldo or someone like myself is a way down the ranks at the bottom of the list called the MBE, which is as low as you can get, but it's it's uh it doesn't mean anything. It's an honor. You don't pay any less tax. I still pay taxes the same way I did before. But it's just that it's an honor, it's an honor to have, or a piece of paper and a and a little medal thing you get to wear with the MBE on it. And there's a lot of people that would love to have an MBE. And uh I got to meet the Queen um at the inauguration or whatever. So I got to see with the Queen. I've also had lunch with the Queen several months beforehand. Um I know she has garden parties, and uh and the garden parties at Buckerman Palace can be up to about 3,000 people, but you are you are at the garden party, you do have the Queen as your host, but you never see her, but you might see her from you know 100 yards away, but she's there. So I'm invited for a lunch at Buckerman Palace. So I've gone through the gates with a driver, and we get up and announce the advent this allow you. Um the table plan is up there on your right, so you can see where you're sitting. So I'm expecting this huge eight foot by eight-foot board with about 50 tables, and there's only one, there's only one table. So I'm sitting at the queen with a grand total, including the queen, of 12 people. So it gives you an idea. So that's a that's a proper lunch. That's not a garden party where you so I got to talk to the Queen and um and the Queen I gather loves those sort of evenings or afternoons with uh special guests, and you know, you have people from a Donald Trump could be there, sort of thing. Or I was I was out there as professional golfer. That was my my name tag was Sandy Lal Professional Golfer. But the other ones could have names behind it, like a dentist, you know, BC for V F this, and um quite a quite a remarkable lady. Yes, and she's what 95 now? It's pretty amazing.

Bruce Devlin 43:01

Yeah, yeah, pretty amazing.

Mike Gonzalez 43:02

So, Bruce, do we have time for our couple of uh usual questions with our guests?

Bruce Devlin 43:07

Oh, we can't let Sandy go without asking him one of the one of our favorite questions. So, Sandy, I'll I'll go first. If you if you if you could have a mulligan, where would you take it?

Sandy Lyle 43:22

If I could have a mulligan, where could I take it? Um I've gotta think I've got to think of this one really hard now, because I've I've usually when I've been in contention, I've managed to sort of um manage to finish and finish the job off, but is there something that's left a bitter taste? Good God. Uh is it America or is it uh is it the masters? God, I'm really struggling here trying to think of a mulligan. I mean, people you just go like that. Oh yeah, if I had that shot again, I'd be uh Yeah. Maybe I'll come back to that one in a minute when I can think of it.

Bruce Devlin 44:03

Uh it's it's uh it's the hardest one to answer anyhow. Uh but but Mike's got one for you.

Mike Gonzalez 44:09

Yeah, so uh this one maybe a little easier. So if you knew when you started as a professional what you know now, what would you have done differently?

Sandy Lyle 44:20

Um I would definitely stick to the same swing what I was born with and I worked out and not doing multiple changes. I've seen that with Tiger and Greg Norman that have done you know swing changes, and I think um knowledge is a big thing. If you if the n and there's so much knowledge out there these days now, and there's no excuse for bad golf swinging. I mean, if you'd see that in overseas players that have play from far afield that don't have university to go to, they've they've come out with good golf swing because there's so much knowledge out there and YouTube and things like that. So I would not um you know the swing I was born with, if I could just maintain that for a longer period, I'd be very, very happy.

Mike Gonzalez 45:05

And finally, as we wrap up with you, Sandy, how would you like to be remembered?

Sandy Lyle 45:11

As a good guy, as somebody who's easy to approach, and I think that's mentioned in Toby Shannon that have never changed. And I like to be remembered that way. I think uh I think you know, even Arnold Palmer up to his end of the days is so easy to talk to in the the the sort of dinner we have on the Tuesday night at Augusta. And um it's to get him to sign some balls or some flags, it's never an issue. You know, it's even in his latter years, you know, I often um I had some golf balls signed from I I had a dozen balls that was entered in my locker by accident. I was with Callaway, and one of those dozens must have been on the radar. It actually had Arnold's little motif on it, the flag. Oh that the umbrella, sorry. So I've always I kept that for year after year after year. This sort of and I gave a f a few way to friends, but I had a half a dozen or six balls left, and um I finally remembered only like some years ago before he passed away that I had them still in my house here to actually put them in the car and have them, and then Arnold signed them for me. So that's a nice thing um to to be remembered, is easy to reproach. And to your question, Bruce, I think the one mulligan I would like to have is maybe not serve haggis at the dinner.

Bruce Devlin 46:36

Okay, alright.

Sandy Lyle 46:39

The master's dinner.

Bruce Devlin 46:40

Well listen. Well, Sandy, we want to we want to say how much uh we've enjoyed having you today. You've been a great guest, and uh we we thank you for your time and we thank your wife for all her help as well.

Sandy Lyle 46:55

It's a big part. Good, good. I'd love to talk to you, and it's uh very fresh and to remember all these good things and not so good things, and but overall it's all good.

Mike Gonzalez 47:07

Sandy, thanks for being with us, and uh maybe one day we'll have a hickory game together.

Sandy Lyle 47:11

I've got them here as well, you know. I've got a set here ready to go. So you name it.

Mike Gonzalez 47:17

All right, good. Well, thanks for being with us.

Sandy Lyle 47:19

Thank you, Mike. Thank you, Bruce.

Mike Gonzalez 47:21

Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends until we tee it up again for the good of the game. So long, everybody.

Intro Music 47:43

Whack down the fairway. It went smack down the fairway. When it started this light, just smitched offline. It had it for two, but it bounced off nine. Lock at it, as long as you're still in the stage, you're okay.