Shaun Micheel - Part 4 (Late Career and Life After Golf)

Mike Gonzalez 0:15

Let's go back to the finish just finish just on a positive. You go back to the PJ Championship in 06, finishing stuck in the Tiger Woods and Medina, and then on to Wentworth. The Piccadilly is probably what it might have been called, you know, the world match play, where you had a a great run before succumbing to Paul Casey in the finals. Just tell us a little bit about your reflections on those two events and experiences.

Shaun Micheel 0:41

Well, I tell you what, that BMW, that that, that uh, the match play at Wentworth, it's too bad that it doesn't exist anymore because it's really a fantastic event. I had qualified for that event. Um, I'll get back to, I'll get I'll get on point here in a second. 2003, when I won the PGA, I get invited to play in this event, the World Match Play, I'd go over there. I'm like, okay, what's this all about? A new new, you know. And um, so the night before my first match, I'd I was sick. I was with my agent and I was with uh my caddy, Bob Cesny, who passed away uh last year, by the way. Or actually, yeah, last December. So um anyway, we were over there. It was the night before the first match. They were all 36-hole matches. I wasn't feeling well. I had a like a sinus thing, I was cold, I was stuffy, I just didn't feel great. Well, I had a 36-hole match, I had to tee off at like 7, 7.30, something like that. So I go to the sauna, uh, the steam room at the Wentworth Club. I come back and I'm like, now I've always when I started playing overseas, particularly started in Asia, I always mark my balls on the greens with foreign coins. My favorite coin to mark with is a 20-pence piece, okay? As long as it's not too shiny. It's the right size, it's the right shape, I know what to look for. So I've that's something unique that people don't know. Is I is I marked every every ball is marked with foreign coin. Well, I go in there and I go back to my room to take a shower. We had a cook, everybody at that particular tournament had a house. There were 16 of us around Wentworth. There were beautiful homes. Each person got one. And you had a you had a cook, and a usually a female was beautiful cooking and was great to be around and all these things. Well, I had some things that were out of place on my dresser where I put my wallet. I'm like, that's odd. Something didn't look right. Well, come to find out that we had gotten robbed. I was lucky in the sense that that my windows were locked. My caddy, I can't remember if it was my caddy's room or my agent's room, somebody had come in. Well, I was excuse me. Well, I was at the sauna, my caddy, my agent, and the the lady that was cooking dinner was were downstairs. There was a somebody had gotten a uh a ladder and climbed up into, I think it was my caddy's room. His door, his windows were unlocked, and they broke in and stole a bunch of stuff. So I was lucky that I didn't lose anything. Um, but I had I was up till two, you know, two o'clock in the morning, one, two in the morning with the police, and um uh they never did figure out as far as I know who did it. But my cat, my my agent lost his his uh didn't take his passport, but lost money and his credit cards and stuff. So anyway, I I play VJ, he beats me in 38 holes. Um that was my first experience. But oh six was great. I was playing great. Um played well at Medina. Um, you know, could I have won? I I mean I don't know, Tiger was kind of unflappable then. Um, you know, video showing making lots of putts. I mean, that's what you got to do to win these tournaments. But but I felt good about finishing runner-up. I was like, okay, my game's back. Got into the match play. Uh the way they did the match play back in the day was you'd have thought uh, you know, 16 was gonna play uh number one. Well, um Tiger Woods was number one. You'd think we'd be the number one seed. Well, because Ernie Ells had won the year before, he was the number one seed. Simon Kahn was the 16th seed. I was 15, Tiger was number two. Well, we go to dinner the night before. Luke Donald comes up to me and he goes, do us all a favor. That's all he said. We were having a big we have a big picture in front of this giant globe that they had put outside for all of us. We had a nice dinner. Um, my wife was there, my wife told the lady driving us around, she's like, Hey, are y'all gonna go into London? She goes, Have you ever been to London before? My wife says, No, I've never been to London, but we're gonna go in on Friday. And the lady said, the lady driver, she's like, Why are you going on Friday? She goes, Well, because Sean plays Tiger on Thursday. So even my wife didn't think I was gonna win. But the night before with this dinner, uh, uh, Luke Donald said, Hey, do us all a favor. And uh I love playing with Tiger. I play with Tiger a handful of times in my career, whether it's in a you know practice round, we've we've been around each other a lot, talked a lot. He's always been better than me, he's always been better than most players, you know. So I knew he already knew that going in. But I was playing really good golf. And uh I think I was a couple up or two up or something after the first uh first nine first 18 holes, went in for lunch. I'm like, well, this is gonna be a tough day, it's a tough afternoon, and I ended up winning four and three. So uh, you know, if I go back and I look, I say I was a good player. I I was a good player. There were a lot of things that I did to my detriment that didn't allow me to win more. But, you know, you don't fluke your way through, you know, the PGA, winning the PGA, or finishing second to PGA or this match play type of situation without being able to play a little bit of golf. Um, so I did that, and then at the end in the end, Paul Casey was was like he had been beating everyone's brains in in this tournament. By the by the fourth day, I'd, you know, I'd played, I played uh, you know, Tiger, and then I played uh Luke Donald and I played Robert Carlson. 36 hole matches, you know, going to bed at 10-11, waking up at 4.30 to go play. I was exhausted, you know, and keep in mind, you know, I'm you know 37 years old. Paul's probably like 25 or whatever, playing great golf, highly ranked, and and then I I lose 10 and 8. And now I didn't play too bad, but but Paul played exceptional. And uh so yes, the final outcome was pretty ugly. And I was embarrassed because and I because I had gotten beat so much so badly that uh I kind of felt I was kind of apologizing to the TV and and everything else. But but I but you know it it just it just happened. And uh I just ran out of gas and kind of ran into a player that was playing well. But but uh again, just uh playing great golf at the time and uh uh you know loved my experience uh you know playing over there and and uh it was a great event. I love match play and um you know uh you know it's it was a good it was a good time in my life.

Mike Gonzalez 7:05

Yeah. So uh you share a distinction with Mr. Devlin as being one of just several professional golfers that uh have managed to score an albatross in a major championship. Mm-hmm.

Shaun Micheel 7:20

Yeah, yeah. 2010, I uh well again, uh every every time I try to tell you guys a story, there's always some other story that within this story. So if I get back, after the first day, I was tied for the lead. I think I shot I think it was 69 or 68, and I was tied for the lead with two or three other people. Go around, start on the back nine the second day, I get to number one, terrible shot. I hit like a wedge or nine iron in. The front pin was like kind of middle right, and I was on the front right. They had grass that was over the this high fescue that was bordering the around the bunkers there at Pebble Beach. Well, I get in there and I hit a shot, was hitting it like a bunker shot. My ball is like half hanging over the bunker. Well, my ball went about three feet straight in front of me. Well, that time both both Graham McDowell, who the eventual winner, I I played with in the first two rounds, him and his caddy came over and says, You double hit that ball. I'm like, what? I did not double hit the ball, I only made contact one time. The ball, you think of a double hit when the guy hits it and the ball goes flinging off you know, sideways, you know. Well, now I'm rattled. I'm like, I didn't double hit that. So I go from tied for the lead to shooting like six or seven over on the back nine now and finishing way out on the ninth hole. Uh my so I was gonna make the cut. So I think I was one hundred or two hundred the first day, and seven or eight over six or seven over the second day, all because of what happened, you know, the back nine, second nine. Well, Mike Davis comes out there on the ninth hole and he's like, hey, look, don't sign your scorecard. Let's go into the truck. Well, now I'm in a truck, I'm in a car that takes us all the way to the compound. I'm in a cart now with Mike Davis. Okay. And we go into the CBS truck or NBC, whatever truck it was, and we're looking at this video, and there's a camera that's dead behind the green, shooting perfectly right at my club. And something looks funny, but it doesn't look like a double hit. I told Mike, I said, Mike, I only made contact with the ball one time. He's like, Well, you know, you can double hit the ball with only contacting it one time. What?

Bruce Devlin 9:33

I'm like, what that doesn't make any sense. How do you do that?

Shaun Micheel 9:38

I only hit the ball one time. And he tried to explain it to me. See, it's like a like you hit a shot and it doesn't move the ball first, but your follow-through propels it like you're buried in the lip of a bunker. And I was like, that just sounds crazy. Now, when you look at the video, my my club, I think what happened was I took the penalty. Mike told me, Mike Davis told me, Sean, I can't tell that you double hit it. It looks funny, but as far as I'm concerned, you don't have to take the penalty if you don't want to. He said, It looks funny though. Well, now I'm conflicted. I'm like, what am I gonna do? And when you ultimately what we kind of decided, Mike said, Sean, I think it looks like what happens is you hit the shot. I explained to him that I hit it like a bunker shot because it was deep rough. He said, It looks to me like when you hit the fescue stood up, the ball hit the fescue and ricocheted back into you because my club basically stopped. I couldn't make a follow-through. And he said that possibly could have stood up the grass, the ball hits the grass, comes back into my stopped club base and goes forward. What do I do? I I I I have no clue. And because Graham and his caddy were so adamant, I took the penalty. I have since talked to Graham about it, and I said, you know, this is what happened. He wasn't there, he wasn't part of the conversation that I was a part of. He might have been a part of the conversation. I'm sure he was. Hey, because he was on the side. And maybe that's where Mike decided, but he left it up to me. In the end, I decided to take the two, it was a two-shot penalty. Now, now it's just one, you know. And I was like, well, I mean, it looked funny, but I'm like, the explanation of well, you can actually hit the ball twice with only contacting it once, it it just didn't sit well with me. And I told Graham three or four years ago, I said, you know, I wouldn't have taken that penalty now because you know, the ball went three feet in front of me. It didn't, you know.

Mike Gonzalez 11:39

So and and by the way, though they've changed the rule now, so it wouldn't have been a penalty.

Shaun Micheel 11:44

Yeah. So anyway, I took the penalty, go around, still playing decent golf. I get the Sunday playing with VJ C. And I don't even remember what I was. I have maybe it was even one over, two over the first through the first five holes. Get the six. My wife's up on the green. You know, my mom uh was dying of cancer. Um she had been diagnosed the year before uh with lung cancer. Ultimately, she died October 21st of 2010. So we just had that kind of pass, she just passed. So um, anyway, got a lot on my mind. I'd done a lot of, done a few interviews about it because I was playing well, so people had me in in the media center. Um so 230 and 9, pins front right, VJ's up to my right, pull out a three-iron, which I still have. I have two of these three irons, and uh, you know, hit it up there. At the time, there was a little bush at the very top of that. Bruce, I don't even remember Pebble Beach number six. There was always like a little, I'll call like a fescue bush. I don't even know what it was, but it was a thick green bush that marked basically the fair to the center of the green. It was just if it was put there on purpose, I don't know. Well, I ain't did it over there, hit it up there. Okay, hit a good shot. The crowd's going crazy. And I'm like, did that go in? And and then it's on video. You can pull it up and anyway. I'm like, oh, that went in, you know, double E. It was the coolest thing ever. And uh, but didn't see it. Uh VJ comes over, gives me a high five. I walk up, walk up to the green, you know, and pull the ball of the hole, and and uh, you know, the crowd's going crazy. I walk over and I give that ball to my wife. I give it to Stephanie, and I ultimately kind of gave that ball. Uh, I got a nice um kind of thing off the online for it, uh, nice stand and put it to my mom and stuff like that. And I gave that gave that ball to my mom when I got home before she passed away. And and uh yeah, it was pretty cool to uh at the time was just the second player in U.S. Open history to have made a double eagle. And I think Nick Watney's the latest player to make one. Um but it's pretty cool company to be with to be with players that that have made one. It's the hardest, probably the hardest shot in golf, I'm guessing, besides maybe Ace in a R4. But you know. So, you know, like I said, there's always a story within a story with me, it seems like. Um, but it was a you know, made it around. I think I finished 21st or 22nd, so respectable, uh, considering what happened to me on the second nine holes of the second round, you know. So um, but yeah, it's uh yeah, it was a three-iron from 239. And uh, I've only made two. I made one the year before or in in uh 1999 with a floorwood and a pro-am at uh hard scrabble country club using in Arkansas and a Nike tour event in a Pro Am. So that one didn't really count so much, but uh pretty special.

Mike Gonzalez 14:31

Yeah, they had a they had a uh LPG8 tour event back in the day at the Hard Scrabble. Uh it was called the Hard Scrabble Open, wasn't it? Uh it was one of the few uh professional tournaments in the early days of the tour back in the early uh 50s.

Shaun Micheel 14:47

Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, Arkansas's got some great, great golf, got some great golf courses. Matter of fact, I think the champions event, I don't know if it's this week or maybe it's I think it's this week, they're playing the Simmons Bank Open uh for the top 54 in the playoffs. But um, yeah, so they have some they have some great golf and and uh um you know Glenn Day's from there. I mean Dickie Pride plays, you know, so um anyway, it's uh yeah, great, great, great golf.

Mike Gonzalez 15:14

Yeah, so at some point you just made the decision to sort of wind down the regular tour playing. Take us a little bit through that.

Shaun Micheel 15:21

Well, you know, as as as always, those things are never uh really a choice. I mean, no nobody would uh would voluntarily give up uh uh you know their life of or their or their career really for playing. Uh 2000, that was 2010, 2011. So in 2010, I wasn't even exempt. Um but I had three top five finishes, had this U.S. Open finish, had some other good finishes, uh, finished, I mean, I made I made well over a million dollars, uh finished top 60 or 70 on the money list and wasn't exempt. So uh my mom dies in uh uh 2010 and uh was kind of lost. You know, it was obviously been around people that had lost their parents or siblings or family members, and uh it was it was tough on me. Um, you know, and then I go to 2011 um with a lot of hope uh for the way that I had played the year before. I go to the Sony Open. That seems to be referenced a lot in my talk today. I made a hole in one on the second round at uh uh at on the uh at 17 at Sony, so there were some good things in there, but I I just I don't know what happened. I just I kind of just lost my way. I wasn't enthused. Um I didn't have my mom. Um, I've been through a lot of battles with my mom, you know. My mom had battled mental illness her whole life. Um in and out of hospitals. I I I you know I you know, those are some really terrible things that happened and uh in my life as a child. And uh so when I but I when I lost my mom, I I just was kind of lost and uh didn't play well that year, lost my card in 2011 and and you know, played some in 12 and 13, played a lot more in the European Tour in 13, and then eventually just pretty much became uh a non-exempt, played a few events through about 2018 or 19 on the tour, just basically out of the past champion category. And uh, you know, now the only tour event that I play in is the PGA, uh, which that'll be coming to an end pretty soon. I don't know when, uh maybe this next year, but I'm not sure. But uh yeah, I it's uh people when I was when I was a young player, there were guys like uh say Larry Larry Rinker, who I know very well. I mean, there were players that had really nice careers that I knew who they were, and they're like in their early to mid-40s. I'm like, why is this guy still playing golf? I mean, God, what happened to his game? This guy was incredible. And then I I was I was seeing that firsthand. Uh whether it was, you know, I had a really bad shoulder surgery that started kind of the downfall really for me because my swing totally changed. And um uh, you know, then being a dad and and things at home and wanting to be with my kids and wanting to see their soccer games and sporting events and events at school, you know, like you said earlier, life just took a and um I started I started to find I started to find some enjoyment um outside of golf. I mean, um all I've known is a golfer, and I think, you know, I told you earlier, my my work always came home with me. I had a good day, it was there. If I had a bad day, it was there. My wife's like, why can't you just leave your work at uh on the course? I'm like, I you know, it just always came home. And um so I started finding a lot of things in my life that I found some enjoyment in, but I still uh you know, still missed the golf, and and it was still there to a to a to a certain degree. But then as I've gotten, you know, into in my late 40s, you know, trying to play the Nike tour, I had a bad attitude, was the I guess it was the web.com tour then uh you know, I had a bad attitude. I was like, here I am, I've played the tour this long, I've made this amount of money, I've played, I won a major championship, I've played in all these majors, and here I am back playing on this mini tour, basically. And I it was it was my own problem. It was nobody else's fault. It was and I I explained to people, I'd be like, you know, my dad was a was a captain uh in every airplane that he was for almost his entire career. And we like almost telling him, Well, you know, Mr. McKeel, well, you're not doing as well, so you don't get to be the captain anymore. And you get removed from that particular situation. So I kind of felt it just felt funny that I wasn't, you know, it's like, well, why do I want to play this tour? There's no money to be played here. It was a totally bad attitude that I had and it and it reflected in my game. But anyway, it just things happen. You know, injury, uh poor play, or you just don't want to be there, or a combination of all the above. I mean, um, because when you don't want to play, there's another player, if not a half dozen more or more, that would that want to play and that want to work at it. They're in a different situation. It's just a new, new group of guys that come. It's like the next man up mentality. You know, these football players, they get injured. Well, hey, you gotta have another running back, gotta have another. So there's always the next guy uh and next girl on the LPJ tour. There's there's there's always the next person that's ready to step in, and you become irrelevant. You you you really do. You quit how quickly you're forgotten about it, and I've and I've certainly found that out. But that's like I said, that's more of a personal, personal issue than anything else.

Mike Gonzalez 20:23

But well, you had a chance to play a little bit on the champions tour. Of course, uh uh you've got a lot of other things that occupy your time these days, don't you?

Shaun Micheel 20:32

Yeah, oh I do. I do. I mean, you know, I turned I turned uh 50 in 2019 and and uh started out uh you know not being exempt. And it's tough, you know. It's like, well, golly, you know, you won a major championship. Some of these guys never won. How are how are you not exempt? And you know, I don't fit within the rules. Those are the rules that you play by. I mean, there's a lot of players on the champions tour that you you everybody's had something to do positive in their career. Many of you guys have won multiple times. Look at Mark Brooks. Mark Brooks won eight or nine times in a PGA, and now he's he's outside of that career, and I don't think out of that out of that category, so he doesn't get a play very much. There's a lot of guys that have done things more significant than me, and there's only so much room. Yep. So I started out in 2019. I my birthday's in early January, so I was 50 right at the beginning of my fifth, you know, the start of the season. My first my first uh ever tournament was in Mississippi. I qualified. I didn't get an exempt, I started writing for an exemptions, but again, I don't get very many. Even to this day, I don't I don't, you know, and that's okay. I have but but uh so my first event was in Mississippi, and I won the qualifier, go after this course, and I get there, and the greens are like 13 on the stent meter, and the course is like 7,200 yards long, and I told someone it's like one of the hardest courses I'd played in a long time. And I said, Jesus, I thought this was the champions tour. I mean, this course. And I was, I was, I couldn't believe it. And um, you know, it it's uh it was fun. I mean I played okay, not great. And uh but that particular year I only played I only played twelve events. Um and then I went to the tour school and stuff like that. But but uh, you know, I've really kind of been derailed by a few things. I mean, I I've you know I've never shared this publicly. This is the first time I've ever shared this publicly. Uh I've had something that happened to my family. Uh as an individual that's in federal prison right now for something that that that that this person did. Um, and I've not recovered from it. And um I think about this person will be in prison until I'm probably no longer on this planet. Um it hurt me, and it still does. I mean, my life isn't great. Um, you know, it's better, but uh you know what happened is um I think about this person every day. I think about the person's name. I think about the impact statement that I gave in a federal courtroom, I think about my DOJ prosecutors, I think about my victim witness specialist. The person, and I'll say share this, the person that, and I can't really get into the to what happened, but uh the person, the uh the Department of Homeland Security arresting agent when I gave my victim impact statement, he took me to dinner. I went with him and another undercover DHS person. And uh he says, uh you're not gonna believe this. But Sean, when you uh when you hit your shot on 18 at Oak Hill, I was there with my dad. And it just floored me. And uh so you know there have been three players, well, been a lot of players really, but three three three guys that I really remember. Uh Ernie Ells asked me, Bernard Langer asked me this year, and Vijay Sangh asked me this year uh on the putting green on Saturday at Carnegie, the Open Championship. Why don't you play more? We never see you out here playing. And a lot of people have asked me that. Fans, people asked me, write me letters. Um one, you know, I told Vijay, I said, Vijay, I didn't have your career. I mean, you won 40 some times. You know, you you've done all these great things in golf. I had one one win, you know, that on the PJ tour that the champions tour would recognize. Uh had did all right, and obviously made way more cuts. I'm fully vested in retirement, so I had a decent career. I said, but you don't understand. Something happened to my family, and and I don't my life just isn't great. You know, I I uh I spent a lot of time alone. Uh I'm better now, you know, but I the thing that happened, it just um I can't, I'll never recover from it. And uh, you know, a few people know about it. Uh only my wife and I and the arresting agents and the DOJ people know what happened. Uh but it's uh it's kind of destroyed me. And so I I sp I I still love playing golf, but that that has an effect. You know, if we go back, if we go back to where we were, what I said about taking your life outside of the ropes and being able to compete at a high level, which is what uh this game demands. You don't get to be exempt. Now, champions tour is a little bit different because guys that have won$30 million, they're never gonna be unexempt. I don't care unless they get the letter that we call it. And, you know, they're always gonna be exempt. For guys like me that are on the fringe, it's a grind every day, it's a grind every week. I know I'm not gonna be exempt. I'm never exempt unless I, you know, win or do something like that. But I can't, you know, my life outside the ropes has always found its way inside. I've never been able to separate that. And this particular issue that's happened to my family, um, I can't, I can't escape it. I can't. I mean every day I think of this person's name, I think of that person's face, I think of what I spoke in court. I see emails every day, well not every day, but of of court transcripts, the appeal process. I see everything and I think about it every day. I can't get away from it. And you know, it's it's um I think that's had more of an impact than the loss of my parents, you know, um, these types of things. And you know, this thing. And so anyway, uh people ask me, why aren't you playing? And it's hard for me to share that. I've never shared that. Nobody, I mean it's the first time I've ever shared that in public. And I I feel like it's okay. I mean, you know, I can't like I said I can't get into the specifics of what happened, but um it's just my life is just it's just not the same. It's not the same. And and uh, you know, like I said, I think about the person, I think about his face, and I I think I think about everything.

Mike Gonzalez 26:43

Yeah, well, look, uh we we we appreciate you sharing and and uh don't need to get into the details. I guess uh I would only pray that uh in your own way, uh with a lot of help from family and others, uh you find a way to work through this and and uh and and and get get get past this to lead the kind of life you want to lead with you and your family.

Shaun Micheel 27:03

Yeah. Well, I think it's it's interesting, you know, just kind of going through your outline yesterday and and uh you know your you referenced uh you know something about uh me working with a therapist. And I like growing up with mental illness, uh, you know, uh with my mom, you know, my mom was in and out of hospitals her whole life, you know. Um I I she'd be locked behind two doors, and I'd have to go as a little kid. There were there were times that uh you know, my dad would be flying, and my mom would go into an episode. I'd have to call my dad twice. I had to call my dad on his emergency number that uh that I had because my sister was young, I was young, and uh, you know, my wife saw it, a lot of my friends saw what happened to some of these things that my mom did, and it just sad really, you know. Um, but you know, in watching her try to go through the therapy, it's I think it's something that all of us could probably go through. And I and it's something I wish I would have done earlier. And I don't mean early in my career, it was more about, golly, why am I not playing well? And you would think about Dr. Rotella or Morris Pickens, and I did see Morris for a little while working on my sport psychology. And and I think the knock on it was always, oh golly, you just gotta think positive and and deep breathing. It okay, that's part of it. But it's it's way more than that. And it's not just about the sports side of it, it's the life stuff that happens outside. And again, that gets lost when a when a fang pays for a ticket and goes inside the ropes, they expect that player to be playing well. The media expects it, the TV expects it, they demand it because otherwise you're not gonna get shown. So, by God, everything that's happened outside the ropes, you better, you better show us a good time. And that's essentially the way I felt about it. It's not, nobody tells you that, but that's what's expected. You're expected to perform. And if you're not gonna perform, then somebody else that doesn't have these problems is going to. That leads me to finally realizing that some of these things in my life are having an effect on my golf. Okay, they're having an effect on my joy in my life, and so they're having an effect on my relationship with my family because I'm constantly bringing my bad practice home, or I'm bringing my bad tournaments home, or I can't get into a tournament, or a tournament director wrote me back and said, I'm sorry, Sean, we just you you you're not gonna get the exemption this week. Well, that's never a problem. I mean, guys don't have any problems with no, but after that goes on and on and on, you know, it's like me, I got I kind of quit writing, you know, for these exemptions. But that takes me to a couple years ago. I finally decided I'm gonna go see this person and this this uh this lady I've known for a long time. Her husband actually is my financial advisor. Well, I go down, we're talking about golf, how to have more fun with golf. How am I gonna be more successful with golf? How am I gonna navigate this particular issue that I've had um with um you know, Homeland Security and DOJ and ICE and HSI and all this stuff. And so after like the third session, I still have her text message, by the way. So she texted me and said, Sean, you know, we're we're doing great. I enjoyed it. It was it was it was tough for me to finally open up. And I think it's part of why I share so much, and I have shared so much today, because I I feel like most players would benefit. I never understood how Tiger Woods was so reserved. Um, but I do get it. But um anyway, uh August I get it I get a text from her, hey Sean, something happened to me, end up in the hospital, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, I didn't want to ask her because she didn't say. I was like, well, maybe it's more, maybe it's worse than what she says because she didn't say she tore her knee or tore her Achilles in it or something. And uh she's like, well, something happened to me in the hospital. I never spoke to her again. She um her husband called me and said that she was diagnosed with glioblastoma, and she died two months later. And that was the same cancer that my dad died of. And so, so, you know, I did an interview with Amy Rogers and I I kind of referenced that a little bit. Um, you know, and uh anyway, I just over the years, I just the last couple years I've I've I haven't seen anybody else, but but uh I I see this, I see the I see the players, I see the other sports, I see the tennis, you know, I see in women's gymnastics, I see some of the things that are that are happening that have happened to these players, how they navigate Twitter, how do they navigate social media? You know, I'm kind of immune to that. I mean, I don't necessarily mind fighting back with somebody, but you're not gonna what I realize is you're not gonna change somebody's opinion. But you just quickly realize how how much, and I'll just use the term mental illness because I'm very familiar with it, there's how much mental illness is out there. When you see some of the comments that people put out there, you see some of the things that people say about other players out there. I was at the Ryder Cup in 16. I heard things that I'd never thought that I would hear. And, you know, little kids around, I just realized how much sickness is out there. And, you know, that's just the way they're gonna be. But um, you know, I enjoy talking about it. I enjoy, if I hear, if I hear of a uh Steve Wheatcroft, he's an Indiana graduate. He was going through that. He just came out about a month or two ago saying that he basically played drunk. Nobody knew it but him. And he went to IU. He now I'm I I'm a 91 graduate, he's probably a 97, 98 graduate, something like that, maybe. So things happen behind the scenes. The fans don't see, the media doesn't see, but yet they expect you to be perfect, they expect you to perform, and you want to perform, but there's sometimes things and you can't share everything. You don't want to share everything. And so you just suck it up and you go on. And uh, you know, uh I I just learned a lot about about other people. I mean, kind of me being a little bit more empathetic than being like, oh well, you got a problem, well, just suck it up and go play, and you're playing golf or whatever.

Mike Gonzalez 32:46

So Yeah, yeah. Well, we we we really appreciate you sharing, and uh, you know, as we we kind of uh wrap up this memory, uh this trip down memory lane, I guess, if you will, uh, throughout your life and your career. Uh Bruce and I always like to kind of conclude these with three final questions. Uh we probably have an inkling of of what the responses might be, but but uh I always defer to my elder partner. He he gets the T for the first question.

Bruce Devlin 33:15

Okay. So let's go back to when you were 23. And if you knew then what you know now, what would you have done differently?

Shaun Micheel 33:33

Oh gosh, well, I certainly would have sought the advice of of Dr. Rotella. Um I would have put up the video camera, you know, that that got out. I mean, it was out there. Um I think that I would play with a different uh attitude. I would play with um a lot more freedom. I wouldn't worry so much about um, oh, I have to make this putt or I have to hit this ball in the fair way. Um I would acknowledge the fans a little bit more. I'd be um uh I think just maybe a lot more open. I wouldn't be quite so uh obstinate, so stubborn. I'd be open to change. I mean, there's a there's a lot of things that I would do differently, but I think that I would try to enjoy my journey a little bit better than um I would I would I would just choose to join enjoy my journey you know better.

Mike Gonzalez 34:30

Isn't it too bad that we have to get older to gain all this perspective? Yeah.

Shaun Micheel 34:34

Well, I mean, look, it's a it's a it's the same thing I hear from other parents, you know, like you're you're butting heads with your kids. You know, my my daughter's in high school, so there's always things with her driving or her attitude or my son's attitude or wherever the case may be. But then people, parents that have their kids at like 30, oh my my my kids love me now. They think I know everything. And so yeah, it's it's the same thing. It is it is it is, and it's just how you handle it.

Mike Gonzalez 34:59

So, question number two, uh let's see how long you have to think about this one. We're gonna give you one career mulligan, one shot, one do-over, where would it be?

Shaun Micheel 35:11

Uh well, I mean gosh. Well, I mean, I think about the uh I think about the the T-shot that I hit on 17 at the BC Open. I was between a six and a five. I chose to hit a little five and I hit it over the green and then didn't get up and down for Bogey. Um that one stands out because I think that was really what kept me from winning the winning the tournament.

Bruce Devlin 35:35

That works.

Mike Gonzalez 35:36

That works.

Bruce Devlin 35:37

All right, Bruce. Final question. Final question. Sean McKeel, how would you like to be remembered?

Shaun Micheel 35:48

Uh somebody that was uh giving, um you know, honest, open, caring, um, someone that had a a really good golf game, but but uh um was very positive and very influential away from the golf course. You know, none of that of course is gonna fit on a tombstone. But um again, I referenced my relationship with the Make a Wish organization for which I had a tournament for 14 years and uh the young children at St. Jude Hospital. Um, you know, to give them a an opportunity to uh enjoy life. Um I just I like to be remembered for someone other than just being a golfer and uh um someone that cared about others.

Bruce Devlin 36:34

We appreciate your time today, Sean. It's been a pleasure listening to Trials and Tribulations. It's been a very interesting experience, and we thank you for your time.

Shaun Micheel 36:46

Yeah, you're welcome. Happy to happy to be part of it.

Mike Gonzalez 36:49

Thanks, John, for your sharing and uh for sharing your story for the good of the game. Thanks.

Shaun Micheel 36:56

Happy to be part of it.

Mike Gonzalez 36:59

Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends until we do it up again.