Sir Bob Charles - Part 2 (The Open Championship)

Mike Gonzalez 0:15

Well, welcome to another edition of For the Good of the Game and Bruce Dublin. We've got a return guest today who's going to be able to tell us what the weather's like tomorrow, so I'm anxious to hear about uh what kind of weather we can expect tomorrow. But I also know he was a big fan of Royalism.

Bruce Devlin 0:32

Well, he should be too. He was uh victor there in 1963 and uh a great partner for me many times. We played a lot of golf together, won the CBS Golf Classic together, and it is indeed a pleasure to have my dear friend Bob Charles back again. Sir Bob Charles, I might add, as well. Robert, thanks for joining us again today. We look forward to uh talking about your golf career, which is quite fantastic.

Bob Charles 1:03

Well, it's a pleasure. It's good good to see you, Bruce, and uh have a little chat with you about old times, and um they certainly go back quite a while, don't they? Uh if you turned 80 you're 86 coming up, aren't you?

Bruce Devlin 1:16

No, I'm 85 coming up.

Bob Charles 1:18

Yeah, October. Did I see your your birthday's in October, is it?

Bruce Devlin 1:22

Yeah, October I'll be 85.

Bob Charles 1:24

Oh, you're 85, okay.

Bruce Devlin 1:26

Yeah. I bow to my senior. I bow to my senior.

Mike Gonzalez 1:33

Well, Bob, you may recall the first time we got together, we talked a lot about uh the early years, uh, you growing up in New Zealand and how you came to learn the game. We talked a little bit about your early amateur career, and I think where we left it, uh, we would been talking about the 1958 Eisenhower Trophy and and your great experiences with your first exposure at the amateur that year to uh the old course. And of course, that was the inaugural Eisenhower Trophy. Bobby Jones was a participant as the honorary captain on the U.S. side. The Aussies, the New Zealanders did quite well in that event. As a matter of fact, uh Bruce, I think I recall the Aussies kind of sneaking in there in the last round, and Bruce Devlin not doing too bad himself.

Bruce Devlin 2:16

Well, we were very fortunate because the New Zealanders were leading after the after the three rounds, and then uh uh we played steadily the last day, but uh it took a uh bit of a catastrophe that Bob will tell us about in a minute, uh, just towards the end of the round where the New Zealanders let us sneak by them. Robert?

Bob Charles 2:40

Yeah, well, uh we were naturally uh disappointed in the final day. Um I don't know how many we're leading by, one, two, three, but um John Durry, uh one of our team members from New Zealand, he uh made a 10 on the road hole. Um, not the road road hole 17, isn't it? What the the uh the one with the with the big bunker? Fourteenth. Uh the the 14th of Five. Uh he made a 10 there, and I think a five would have won for us. And uh my uh putting let me down that particular day. Uh uh I had something like 40 strokes uh to the greens and 40 uh 40, well I hit the the uh 40 putts altogether, uh which included a drive and three putts on the 18th. Uh the uh my second shot was off the road uh on the 18th, and so I had a drive and three putts for a power on the last hole, but uh the damage was already done. And uh take my hat off to the uh USA and of course Australia, who tied and had a playoff the next day and uh to be won by did you win the individual, uh Bruce?

Bruce Devlin 3:44

I I can't I did, yes, Bob. I sure did.

Bob Charles 3:48

Well related, congratulations.

Bruce Devlin 3:51

Well, I appreciate that. Thank you, Bob.

Mike Gonzalez 3:55

Now, Bruce, uh, you probably recall, but Bob Charles has come up with a number of our guests, and most of it revolves around what a great putter he is. I remember very specifically Gary Player bringing him up and talking about what a fantastic putter this guy was. I can't imagine him taking 40 putts anytime.

Bruce Devlin 4:16

No, well, you gotta understand, too, the RNA greens are rather large, and if your iron plays a little off, you can you can have a lot of long putts, can't you, Bob? That's quite right.

Bob Charles 4:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bruce Devlin 4:28

But that is unusual for Mr. Charles. He's usually a pretty good putter, and uh I'm sure he can remember when he and I won the CBS Golf Classic. He he uh he just carried me around there for about five or six hours with Birdie, Birdie, Birdie, Birdie, Birdie. So uh it was fun watching it.

Mike Gonzalez 4:47

Well, we're gonna come back to that, but uh before we do that, I want to I want to stay in the 50s and and before we get to your second Eisenhower trophy uh uh experience at Marion Golf Club, you guys both participated at uh Johannesburg in 1959 in the Commonwealth tournament, didn't you?

Bob Charles 5:09

Yes, well uh I was part of the New Zealand team and uh the Commonwealth uh included the K Canadians, the um Great Britain and Ireland, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand. It was the inaugural event, and uh uh I don't know how we did. Uh I'm not even sure whether South Africa won. Uh I'm not I'm not uh Bruce would probably know better than what I do, but uh of course the memorable thing about the uh going to Johannesburg in uh 1959 was meeting my wife to be. Uh and uh we um uh corresponded uh for a couple of years and uh finally married in 1962, uh which is what 60 uh years ago. That's right. So we're about to celebrate our 60th uh wedding anniversary. Uh when I say wedding, uh wedded bliss. There you go.

Bruce Devlin 6:00

There you go. Verity will enjoy that comment, I can assure you, Robert.

Mike Gonzalez 6:06

So you're able to go back to the Eisenhower Trophy. This would have been the second iteration of this event at Marion. I I know I've heard Bruce's uh uh memories of that because uh that was when Mr. Jack Nicholas uh serted himself on a very tough golf course, uh played a uh a tournament there that uh in a game that, as Bobby Jones says, I'm not familiar with in setting the scoring record there at that Marion. But uh uh I think New Zealand tied uh was uh fifth on the team uh competition. You finished sixth individually. Uh the Aussies were second to the Americans, but uh uh Bruce, you probably recall a little bit about that one.

Bruce Devlin 6:50

Yeah, that was uh uh it it wouldn't have mattered how good Bob Charles or Bruce Devlin would have played. Uh Mr. Nicholas broke Hogan's scoring record there. Uh as you said, we finished second, and uh Jack was the uh individual leader, and then Dean Beaman was behind him, and and I ended up in third place, but uh I needed the bus to get to Jack. Uh he was so far in front of me.

Bob Charles 7:17

As far as that tournament goes, uh uh it it was uh well I I'd now what I'd had one, two, three, four, about five overseas uh trips for um international play. And uh so by then I was starting to uh well prior to that, but but by then I had really made up my mind to uh turn professional, and in fact I did. I think the uh that Eisenhower Merion finished something like uh was it September? Uh but within uh within two months of returning to New Zealand from that uh Eisenhower Merion, uh I turned pro.

Mike Gonzalez 7:58

So is that something you'd been thinking about for a long time and it was just sort of fate accompli, or was it a uh more of a sudden decision you came to?

Bob Charles 8:07

Well, no, the seed was in my mind uh from uh the moment that I won the New Zealand Open at the age of 18, back to 1954. And Dick Penfold, uh of course, Penfold, you probably know that's a British company, uh A.E. Penfold. Uh he happened to be in New Zealand at the time, and uh he virtually uh made me an offer to turn pro uh at that time. So uh I didn't I waited six years, another six years before I did turn pro. And uh but in that interim period, I had uh a huge amount of experience, as I said, playing international golf.

Mike Gonzalez 8:43

Yeah, let's just recap for our listeners uh very briefly the professional career of Sir Bob Charles. Uh turning pro, as he said in in end of 1960 at the age of 24, he had 80 professional wins, including six on the PGA Tour, ten wins on the European Tour, and twenty four wins on the New Zealand Tour, twenty-five senior PGA Tour wins as well, which ties Bob for fourth all-time on that list. And uh on the PGA Tour uh uh and in general, of course, uh one major, that being the 1963 Open Championship at Royal Litham, which we'll talk about. But uh before we do, we thought we'd talk about some of your other more significant wins. I don't think we have time to talk about all 80, but there were a lot of significant wins around the world. And uh if if our numbers are right, Bob, was the 1961 New Zealand PGA Championship your first professional victory?

Bob Charles 9:40

My first victory as a professional was uh a 36-hole uh ProM event uh leading up to the New Zealand Open. Um uh and in that field was Peter Thompson and Kel Nagel, and uh I think I shot 66, 67 and won comfortably. Um I think it was before the New Zealand Open, or my first open New Zealand Open as a professional, which of course uh uh Peter Thompson won and Kel Nagel beat me in the uh final of the PGA match play. Um so uh yes, I I I had one prior to that 1961 uh New Zealand PGA.

Mike Gonzalez 10:28

Gotcha. And uh and that's probably one that you competed in a few times. Uh but uh uh tell us a little bit about your uh early years before you decided uh I think it was in 63 to play more full-time in the States.

Bob Charles 10:44

When I turned pro in 1960, I wasn't immediately accepted as a as a uh a member of the New Zealand PGA, and uh and I know Bruce will will could probably reflect on a bit than what I do. Peter Thompson also had the same problems of um of being accepted by the PGA and certain countries uh you you had to uh be a member of a of a PGA before you could accept prize money. Right. So I and Great Britain was was one place where uh you didn't need that requirement, and uh that's why I went there. Uh well actually I kicked off my professional career in South Africa. I was accepted there. Uh didn't win anything in South Africa, but had a couple of second places in the uh South African tour before I went on to Europe. Uh I had two years playing the European Tour. Won the um uh a 36-hole Pro M in my first year, and the second year I won, I don't know, about two uh you're well Swiss Open and um tired in a DAX about three tournaments I think I won. So by the end of uh 1962 I was uh starting to think about um playing the USA, and of course I just uh uh met and signed up with the um uh Mark McCormack and um IMG to be. Uh he was just uh working out of a law firm uh 1962 when I first met him in Johannesburg. He was in South Africa with Arnold uh doing an exhibition tour with uh Gary uh player and uh the one tournament which Arnold played in '62 was the uh Transvaal Open in Johannesburg, which I believe Gary won, and I managed to finish second. And uh so that uh I came to the attention of uh of uh Mark McCormick and uh through a uh a mutual friend George Bloomberg. We didn't sign a contract, but we made a verbal agreement that he would take care of my uh uh affairs and future in golf.

Mike Gonzalez 13:00

So, Bob, you didn't waste much time. You came over to the U.S. really, I think, to start playing more full-time here, and boom, you win the Houston Classic at Memorial Park Golf Course by one over Fred Hawkins.

Bob Charles 13:15

Uh well, and Jack Nicholas was in there somewhere. Um uh yeah, they had a pretty good field, actually. I think uh Palmer and Nicholas, and I don't know about Player, I think uh and that was a pretty decent check, too. I think something like um nine thousand dollars for a first in 1963 was was pretty good money. So um no, that would uh that was in about May, I believe. Just uh less than two months before I uh went to Lithum for the Open Championship.

Mike Gonzalez 13:49

Yeah, so first PGA tour event ever won by a left-handed golfer. Bruce, of course, uh you won that about nine years later. But uh uh Bob, you must have uh gone into Lithum then for that open championship with a little bit of confidence coming off that victory in Houston.

Bob Charles 14:09

Oh, indeed, yes. Uh I'd um enjoyed a little bit of success. Uh my my uh I my my first tournament in that particular year was in uh Phoenix, and uh I missed a cut there. Uh made last money in Tucson the following week. I think it amounted to$30. So my first check in the USA was$30. Uh tie for about 25th place. There was only about 25 money spots back in those days, you must remember, also.

Bruce Devlin 14:36

That's right.

Bob Charles 14:37

Following week, uh I well, I did have success in New Orleans and uh I think uh Pensacola and made pretty good checks, well, over a thousand dollars in both of them. Uh that was uh uh leading up to uh Houston. So um no, it gave me a a lot of uh confidence and uh going into the um the open at uh at Lithum and uh uh I was you know like a a winner. I knew I could uh beat the best of them on a given day or d over four days, of course. So uh no, I um must have played inspired golf at at Lytham uh resulting from my win in uh Houston.

Mike Gonzalez 15:22

And I I think I remember you saying that uh there was a handful of the usual suspects that you were really focused on uh that week, and that would include, of course, the big three, and then uh uh a couple of Aussies, as I remember, Peter Thompson and Kel Nagel.

Bob Charles 15:40

Uh yes, Arnold, Jack, and Gary uh and Peter Thompson and Kel Nagel, um uh they I felt were the the ones to beat, and of course, uh that was the event which uh well the uh the major which Jack Nicholas uh felt that he uh had uh in control and could have won, but uh he managed to make bogeys on the last two holes, finished 5-5, whereas uh Phil Rogers and I finished uh uh four-four and uh beat Jack by one shot, I think it was, and of course we had the inevitable 36-hole playoff the final day.

Mike Gonzalez 16:18

It was uh Wednesday, Thursday, Friday with a Saturday playoff.

Bob Charles 16:23

Yeah, well of course the uh the reason for that was that all the pros had to get back to their members over the weekend, so that's why the event had to finish on the Friday.

Mike Gonzalez 16:33

So for our listeners who are probably too young to remember this, uh uh this is back when the Open Championship not only had a 36-hole final, so that would have been the Friday, uh then you've got to go another 36 to settle things the final day, and that kind of gets down to an endurance contest, doesn't it?

Bob Charles 16:55

Well, 72 holes over two days is is certainly an endurance contest, and uh I happened to mention it uh at at the uh prize giving. Um and uh that that was the end of 36 hole playoffs. I think uh right from that uh moment, well from that year, it was uh it was an 18-hole playoff.

Mike Gonzalez 17:18

Just going back a little bit into the tournament uh proper itself, uh after I guess the morning round on the Friday, which would have been after 54 holes, you led by one. Of course, that 66 in the morning on Friday must have helped things.

Bob Charles 17:34

Well, it it did. Uh I think uh Phil Rogers was leading after um two rounds. Uh I don't have that info in front of me, but um, we uh I played uh the final 36 holes with Phil Rogers, and um I know Jack Nicholas was playing in front of us. Uh the reason I remember uh standing on the 16th T, which is right beside the 17th green at Lithum, and uh we watched uh as we were standing on the T, we watched uh Jack overshoot the green with his second shot, and of course uh uh he played a poor well he had a difficult lie at a played a poor chip and uh uh made a five there, and of course he he drove it in uh the bunker on the 18th hole, made a five out of that. So um yeah, uh I think Jack was playing uh two two two or three groups in front of Phil Rogers and I. And I believe we were right at the end of the field.

Mike Gonzalez 18:38

Just take us to that last hole. You had a fairly long two-put from I think front left of the green. Phil had about a 12-footer for Bertie, which would have won it for him. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about the the details of that last hole in regulation?

Bob Charles 18:52

Well, I I had a I know I hit a six-iron into the into the green and it was about forty feet uh might have been I'm not sure whether it was just on or just off the edge of the green, forty feet away. Uh Phil Rogers had a very good shot. Uh I think he had a a shorter shot, second shot, and maybe a wedge nine iron. And I hit it twelve feet from the hole. Uh I put it up about four or five feet past. And uh Phil had the twelve footer, obviously, to win. Uh which uh I don't think he got it the twelve footer anywhere near the hole. It it was about two and a half feet uh short and wide of the hole. And uh he proceeded to uh cut out uh which which he did, he was quite entitled to. Um and the ball did uh almost a three sixty around round the round the cup. It um it uh it it fell in uh uh off off the edge. It was it was so he basically hit two very poor putts from uh from twelve feet. The second putt did did drop, uh which left me with a five-footer to um to tie him, and uh which in those days five-footers were virtually gimme's, so uh I dispense with a five footer comfortably and uh uh that that took us into another day.

Mike Gonzalez 20:17

So uh what again people may forget, particularly uh younger folks who might not have ever seen the footage of this, but uh Phil Rogers uh uh did uh curl in that two and a half footer after about three-quarter revolution around the cup. And then what did he do? He proceeded to take his Tam and drop it onto the hole, didn't he?

Bob Charles 20:39

Uh he did. He did, which um Henry Longhurst, I think, nearly uh fell out of the tower or whatever tower he was in, uh commentating on it. That was uh uh a lot of uh media uh took offense. Uh it it didn't faze me because uh I I'm quite used to um Phil and his antics. And what I recall most about Phil is uh if you went to a casino in Las Vegas uh and he happened to be there, you knew he was there because he was very loud and uh in the crap games. So uh no, it his throw throwing his cap over the over the holders to make sure the ball didn't come out uh was uh uh not something which unexpected as far as I was concerned.

Mike Gonzalez 21:29

Well, it was certainly bad form in the day, but uh obviously it didn't phase you because uh you popped that putt in, and uh that was a lot of pressure, but off you go to a 36-hole playoff. And uh when in the round, or the second round, I guess, did you feel like, okay, I think I can get it home from here?

Bob Charles 21:51

Uh yeah, we were pretty close after the first uh eighteen in the morning, and um uh I well, I maintained a lead uh Certainly all the way uh on the second eighteen, although I think with the second eighteen I hit it out of bounds on the um third hole. Uh not exactly sure, but uh uh making a a double bogey there uh narrowed the margin. Uh but right from from after that, uh that going out of bounds, I just uh improved on my lead uh until it eventually won by I think it was eight eight shots.

Mike Gonzalez 22:28

Yeah, so you shoot 140 uh and uh and Phil shoots 148, so obviously a comfortable, comfortable lead coming in. You one putted 12 of the first 20 holes. Now that's that's more in character with the uh Sir Bob Charles I'm familiar with.

Bob Charles 22:45

Well, of course, you must remember that uh we were using a small ball in those days, and uh uh uh it's much easier to hit a small ball into a big hole than it is to hit a big ball into a small hole. And uh that that's basically been my my philosophy. Uh if you can imagine if you imagine you're putting into a big hole, it's uh it relieves a lot of the strain, doesn't it? Yes, it does, Bob.

Bruce Devlin 23:10

Good point.

Mike Gonzalez 23:11

Well, Bruce, I didn't know that the the not only was the the ball bigger in America, but the holes are bigger in Britain, in Britain, is that right?

Bob Charles 23:19

The hole was always always the same size, but it was never never smaller or bigger.

Mike Gonzalez 23:25

Well, it was a great, great win. Uh first Kiwi and lefty to win a major. As you said, it was the last 36-hole playoff for good reason. Absolutely. I remember Steve Biasteros' uncle, who I've met in Pedrania, Spain, Ramon Soto, was T7 in that event. And uh Bruce Devlin, I think you played in that event as well, didn't you?

Bruce Devlin 23:51

I did, yeah, but I wasn't anywhere near the playoff, I can assure you. Mr. Charles and uh and Nicholas and uh Phil were they had they had it pretty much by themselves the last day.

Mike Gonzalez 24:06

How did that change your life, Bob?

Bob Charles 24:09

Well, I felt my future was assured in the in the professional game. Um it um uh it certainly made life a lot easier uh for me with as far as contracts, exhibitions, and uh of course it made Mark McCormick's uh job a lot easier to uh to get invitations to this, that, and the other. Um and uh so it yeah, it uh it opened a lot of doors for me, and uh um no, it was I was very fortunate, and that was early in in my career too.

Mike Gonzalez 24:48

Well, the other thing that uh you guys uh can tell our listeners about, I think five times in the 60s, the PGA championship was conducted the week after the British Open. Now, this is in a time when it was much more difficult to travel. And how did you guys manage to do that for those times when you tried to play those back to back, or did you not do that?

Bob Charles 25:12

Well, as far as I was concerned, um uh I ever everybody left uh Litham on the uh well Saturday morning perhaps and flew back. Uh those that were playing in the PGA in Dallas uh uh had gone back, so I had to wait an extra day, got in a little later, which uh uh the the one thing I remember about that, the the PGA which Jack uh won, of course, was the heat. I I think it uh it got up to something like um uh close to 120 degrees uh daytime and nighttime it was uh it never got below nine ninety degrees and uh uh to go from uh well Great Britain to uh to Texas were a let's see, it would have been yeah, they doubled, it would have been only about sixty uh sixty degrees and uh at maximum in in uh the UK to 120 degrees, it was uh uh quite a quite a turnaround. So it was a big adjustment as far as the the weather temperature went.

Bruce Devlin 26:20

Plus you had uh you had six rounds in uh in Great Britain, and then you I think you might have even participated in a little celebration, correct?

Bob Charles 26:34

And then traveled back and then No, well the celebration after I won was was uh was just the my wife Verity, uh a friend from uh well actually the manager of the New Zealand team at St Andrews for the Eisenhower and and uh Jim Schooler. And uh of course poor old Phil Rogers was by himself. I think everybody had left town, so it was just uh uh one about four of us, I think. Uh I don't recall any others. So uh so we did have uh in those days I only drank beer. Uh a little more sophisticated these days. I I I I have the other cast of wine.

Bruce Devlin 27:15

I'm just checking on you, that's all. I thought adding adding that celebration probably made it a little harder in Dallas.

Bob Charles 27:22

Yes, not not really, because I had I think I had one pretty good round there from what I recall, uh in the uh 67 or or thereabouts. Uh but uh I think I might have been well, certainly in the top 20 anyway, but um um no, it was uh quite a ch a change in experiencing those those kind of conditions.

Mike Gonzalez 27:46

Yeah, well you did. You finished tied 13th after winning the the week before at Litham. And uh and again, just for our listeners to fully appreciate what you guys went through. I mean, travel was hard enough, particularly where you guys were coming from and traveling the globe as global as global players, but uh to have majors back to back, I guess the the folks nowadays they can't even fathom doing that, can they?

Bob Charles 28:09

Well, of course, we did travel in jet planes in those days. Uh they went a little faster than the old piston engine planes, which uh started out with and flying around the world. That uh so yeah, you you could uh get to anywhere and just uh within twenty-four hours you could be uh at the next tournament if it w was that far away. But um no, we were used to that and adjusted to it, and um it was um uh no, we we um didn't think too much of it. Uh um these days, of course, they all have their uh net jets uh uh fractional ownership and in uh aircraft, which I I did, and it in fact it uh net jets extended my career in senior golf from the age of sixty to seventy, which uh extended my playing career on for those ten extra years. And um but uh jet travel is uh uh quite different to uh the days of Bruce. Were you at the uh the with the World Cup in uh in Saint Nom La Brete in Paris, uh where we had to fly from Paris to uh Melbourne in Australia for an Australian Open?

Bruce Devlin 29:20

Yes, sir, I was.

Bob Charles 29:22

Now that was before the days of I think was it was that jet travel or was it um I'm not not exactly sure whether it was piston engines, uh but uh uh that was.

Bruce Devlin 29:33

I think we'd gotten to the jets just barely, but Tim. I think we come back in 707s.

Bob Charles 29:39

Right, that's right. That was 707 was the start of jet travel, wasn't it?

Bruce Devlin 29:44

Yes, it was. Yeah, so that was a long trip. But you know, going back to uh the back-to-back majors, uh, you know, from players from around the world outside of the U.S. Uh it was always something that that we what we would call international players wanted to win was the open. Uh and for the Americans it was a heavy expense to go over there. The prize money wasn't as good as what they could make back in the United States. So uh, you know, I think it I think it was really about uh, I don't know, it's probably around about 1960 when Arnold started to go over and uh and play in the what used to be the British Open, uh, that that sort of created the great interest that it certainly has today for sure.

Bob Charles 30:35

Well, you're right, Bruce. I didn't play in 1960, and of course that was when another Australian, Kel Nagel, um, won the open, uh beating Arnold, I think, by just one or two strokes. Yeah. But um I was um uh uh my f I was there the following year, 1961, when Arnold won again. Uh so winning those two back-to-back uh opens uh certainly uh brought the event to the forefront of international golf.

Mike Gonzalez 31:08

It sure did. Uh you know, we've got a lot more individual triumphs that we want to talk about, uh Bob. But the the thing I'm most anxious to talk about is in 1964, uh as Bruce alluded to, you guys paired up in the CBS Golf Classic against uh Tony Lehman Bobby Nichols. And uh we talked to Bobby Nichols about this recently, and we'll share uh we'll share some of his recollections. But uh was it the McCormick connection with IMG that brought you guys together that year? Do you remember?

Bruce Devlin 31:42

Uh maybe, but we Bob and I have been uh you know, obviously we we first met in 1958, so we we knew one another fairly well, and uh I I think that's I think the friendship was more than the association with McCormick, wouldn't you say, Bob?

Bob Charles 32:01

Well, yes, and uh being an international uh team also. Um That's right. The yeah, that gave the uh event a little bit of extra um something. Um so I know uh the uh uh of course I I have a record of that. I think you probably do have too. I and f uh finally had uh big reels of film um uh transmitted uh yeah uh uh onto um uh uh CDs or DVDs. I don't I don't know the difference. But uh uh I uh it's in black and white, of course. It was before the days of color. And it was a big, big event at the end of the season, uh held in uh Palm Springs, Palm Desert. And uh uh of course I think in the semifinal we beat uh Sam Sneed and Gardner Dickinson. Correct. You should see the expression on on their faces, uh Sam Sneed in particular, when when I was holding these puts. And uh no, it was uh it it's a it was a memorable occasion, and uh we um we combined well um and uh it was uh uh for us a very successful event and good good money. And uh in fact I've got a a a cup uh which I haven't put it on display. In fact, I don't know quite where it is. It's quite a large cup, uh thanks to CBS and uh and their involvement.

Bruce Devlin 33:40

Yeah, well it was uh it was it was really fun for us too because uh you know in those days uh Bobby Nichols had just won the PGA championship and Tony Lima, champagne Tony Lima was was the big name really, you know, from a from a fan standpoint, uh aside from Arnold. And uh some of the comments that uh I'm sure you heard them too, Bob, if you replayed the tape, but that they were shaking their heads, particularly on your little stretch uh on the back nine, where if you remember correctly, uh you made it from about 18 feet at 10, about 8 feet at 11, about 30 feet at 12, and about 4 feet at 13, and then finally at 14, when I hit my part 45 feet from the hole, you said, uh, come on, you know, your turn to make one, and damned if it didn't go in from 45 feet. So that was it for them. They were they were ready to pitch the towel in, I think, after that.

Bob Charles 34:46

But what you must remember though is that uh I hold all these puts, but you were always inside me, and you you were there as a backup. So so uh so I wasn't concerned as to whether I made or missed my putt. I knew that you were there and inside of me as a backup. So uh no, it was great fun. And of course, uh, well, uh I I I guess we were the we were the underdogs, and uh I'm all for underdogs winning uh winning events.

Bruce Devlin 35:15

There you go. There you go. Which great partner, great partner, Mike.

Mike Gonzalez 35:21

I had mentioned uh Bob, I'd mentioned to Bruce that I did watch the tapes. I found it on internet somewhere, and as you said, it was a lot of these tapes were lost in a fire in a CBS warehouse, but they recovered most of the holes, not all of them. And I specifically remember, because they must have had you guys all mic'd up. So I specifically remember uh every time one of you hold a pot, you could hear Nichols or Lima in the background, and they're just talking to themselves. They they don't know what to think.

Bob Charles 35:53

Yeah, no, the old um what you slipped it in your hip pocket, didn't you? We we were wired wired for sound.

Bruce Devlin 36:00

Right, right, wired for sound. So, Bob, after 64, Bob, you you jumped right out uh early in 1965, won the Tucson Open invitational. And I understand that you only committed like five minutes before the entry deadline was closed, and damned if you didn't win.

Bob Charles 36:22

Uh, you're correct there, and I don't know why I left it so late to uh enter. Obviously, I was uh either not quite ready with my golf game, or um um I think one of the factors uh was it was a brand new golf course. Uh the national. Does that ring any bells, the national golf course?

Bruce Devlin 36:43

Correct. Yeah, Tucson National.

Bob Charles 36:46

So uh nobody knew too much about the golf course, and and uh I uh you're right. I I uh didn't leave it too late. I just got in in time, and uh no, I had a had a good week um there, obviously with all parts of the game, and uh um I'd uh uh re recall a uh a couple of shots I hit. Well one was a par an uphill part three, which uh I can't remember who I was playing with, but uh I hit this uh two on, which uh most guys were using woods on, and uh it uh in in in those well in fact I was using the same clubs that I won the open with, and uh they um well they were performing well uh that particular week. Um I'm not sure how long after I won the open that I continued using those clubs, but uh uh they were um a pretty good set, and I've now got them pro proudly displayed in my home golf club here in Christchurch, uh the Christchurch Golf Club.

Bruce Devlin 37:57

Good. That's great.

Mike Gonzalez 38:00

Well, jump ahead a little bit, at least on the U.S. tour in 67. You win the Atlanta Classic at Atlanta Country Club by two over Tommy Bolt, Gardner Dickinson, and Richard Crawford. What do you remember about that one?

Bob Charles 38:15

Well, another good week. Uh good. Good money. Um yeah, I um a brand again, a brand new golf course, I think is the first time we played there. Uh Atlanta. The uh Atlanta Country Club, was it? Yes. It was, yes. Uh and um, I I I don't know where uh where the other guys were playing and who finished ahead of what, but uh I did get into uh all I remember is I got into strife on the seventeenth hole. I hit a poor T shot and uh not looking too good for my second, but uh played a good recovery and I don't know whether I made a bogey five, but I was a bit lucky there. And um and of course the 18th was a power five, which I don't don't think I could reach uh, but some of the players were reaching, and uh anyway I sneak sneaked home and and that one, and um uh no, it was uh a lot of satisfaction there.

Mike Gonzalez 39:19

You know, you look back in golf at all the great uh golf events that have happened in the Atlanta area, but that was really the first, I think, uh modern era PGA tour event. Uh was that 1967 Atlanta Classic?

Bruce Devlin 39:32

Yeah, that's right.

Mike Gonzalez 39:34

Uh let's go north of the border to what I remember as a child. Uh uh I remember this as being a very prestigious event with major-like status, and that was the Canadian Open, which you won in 1968. That was at St. George's Golf and Country Club by two over JWN.

Bob Charles 39:56

Uh yeah, yes. Well, um George Newson was figuring there in the early uh rounds of the event, and uh Bruce, you would have been there as well, I think.

Bruce Devlin 40:07

I was there, certainly was, Bob.

Bob Charles 40:10

You were there. So uh lo and behold, in the final round, I'm paired with Billy Casper and Jack Nicholas. Uh I don't know whether I was leading or or uh what our status was, but um uh I certainly made a a a lot of long cuts uh on that occasion and uh came to the last hole with a um was it a one-shot lead? I think I might have been one ahead of Chuck both at reasonable drives. Uh I had a seven iron to the green, which I hit with uh less than two feet from the hole. Uh so that was that was it. And and in fact, Jack, who had a wedge, I think he missed missed the green and uh had to get it up and down from off the green to to uh finish second.

Mike Gonzalez 41:00

Yeah, Bruce, the the cachet around that event was much greater back then.

Bruce Devlin 41:05

Certainly was. Yeah, for us, it it sort of was considered a uh fifth major. As a matter of fact, if somebody won two of the other four majors, the Canadian Open Champion went to the playoff series where they had a I think they took all the major champions and they uh four of four guys played every year. So if somebody won twice uh two majors, then the Canadian Open Champion went and joined the force of them.

Mike Gonzalez 41:35

So, Bob, by this time you're finishing up uh your sixth year, let's call it, uh uh playing a lot in the States. Uh who were some of the guys you were closest to back then?

Bob Charles 41:47

Oh, well well, I suppose more more of the foreign players, so to speak, the Australians, the uh South Africans, and uh of course I was the only New Zealander, but um and uh of course uh Tony Jacqueline was uh the British. Uh so um uh well I I had a few close American friends, Rod Funceth being one, and uh a lot of our friendships developed uh through our families. Uh our wives get together with our children, and uh they were everybody was driving by car, nobody thought of flying in those days. Uh you you uh um uh car was the was the mode of uh travel from uh tournament to tournament. So uh we all stayed at the same hotels, um uh Howard Johnson's and uh places uh which well you don't hear much about Howard Johnson's anymore, do you? That's right. So um yeah, it was through our families that uh we we developed our friendships and uh uh yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 42:52

We've heard a lot of stories uh from our guests, uh Bruce, particularly back in those days, 60s and 70s, about uh life on the road uh on the tour. And of course, you you found yourself on occasion on a Greyhound bus, but uh a lot of trips with the families, a lot of time at the pool with the wife and the kids, trading off babysitting each other's families, huh?

Bruce Devlin 43:11

Yeah, pretty often, uh like Bob said, uh we got closer to one another because of our families, and uh usually there'd be one of the wives that would do the shopping and uh take care of some of the kids while the other wives got to go watch the husband play golf, and then we'd sit around the motel of a night and pull the fire up the Barbie and uh have something to eat around the pool, which was pretty nice. And and Bob, we even had a beer in those days, didn't we, around the pool?

Bob Charles 43:44

Oh, yeah, that's all I drank was beer, yeah. But uh might I say that um when we arrived, I don't know what year it was, at the Colonial and Fort Worth, uh the clubhouse had set aside uh a room for For babysitting. So that enabled the wives to come out and w and walk with us pros. And uh I think that uh that was that was the start, the colonial. Am I right? Well, you won the colonial, didn't you, Bruce? I mean, you you should know colonial better than what I do. Uh good memories, good memories.

Bruce Devlin 44:19

Good, good memory too, Bob. That was the first place where they had babysitters. They even had uh drivers that would take the girls to put their dry cleaning in to the dry cleaners. Uh and I believe Colonial was the first place where they ever gave the players food to eat for nothing.

Bob Charles 44:43

Yeah, you could could be right. Could be right, yeah. Oh did they ever invite you back there? They've still got the colonial. Have you been back there at all recently? Do you do you do you do do you attend it?

Bruce Devlin 44:56

Uh I attend it sometimes, but I still uh I still why uh work with Michael Toth trying to help promote the place. And uh course the greatest thing that ever happened to Colonial was Charles Schwab to come in there a couple of years ago, and boy, it put the life back in that tournament. They needed it bad, and uh he's been a great asset to this community here.

Bob Charles 45:18

And and where's your plaid jacket? Do you have it in a uh in a cupboard or or do you do you get to wear it at Colonial?

Bruce Devlin 45:25

Uh I do. Every time I go to Colonial, I have to wear it. It's in my uh it's in my closet, and uh I must say I'm very proud to wear it. And it still fits perfectly. Yes, it does, except it gets a little tiny around the belly. Well, how did you guess, Bob?

Mike Gonzalez 45:52

And Bob, he's the proud owner of a replacement jacket because the original never made it to Australia.

Bruce Devlin 45:58

Yeah, they sent me, you know, in the old days it was a greeny-colored plaid, now it's a red-colored plaid. Don't ask me the uh actual name of the plaid, but yeah, when I when I first uh moved back uh in this area and went to uh the champions center at Colonial, uh they asked me where my jacket was, and I said, Well, it was sent to Australia, but I never got it. Uh so they so they made me another one, which was very nice of them.

Bob Charles 46:26

Oh very good, great, great.

Mike Gonzalez 46:29

So, Bob, uh if we can, let's move forward to the 1969 Piccadilly World Match Play Championship at Wentworth. And before we talk about your wins there and who you uh who you took care of before winning uh all outright, what do you guys remember about this event? The one thing I remember David Graham talking about is uh you guys were able to be driven around in Royals Royces.

Bob Charles 46:56

Uh no, it was only the winner that had the honor of a Rolls-Royce. The others we had uh we had uh Vandenplowers, what were they called? Um Daimlers. Daimler Vandenplowers. Daimlers. That's right. But they were chauffeur driven and uh uh no, it was uh well of course the first one that I played in uh was um I don't know what year it was, but uh everybody stayed at the Savoy Hotel in London. And it was uh more than an hour's drive from uh Wentworth. Uh and it was a pretty long day. And particularly if you had a social event in the evening, um at uh you know an hour getting there, an hour getting back, and and uh thirty-six holes of golf also was uh made it a long day. But um uh no, uh I think it was the the the only that was the last time uh we did that for future I played in a only two or three more than that. Uh they uh rented houses uh which are close to Wentworth with uh staff, staffed houses with cooks and valets and uh I didn't have to make my own bed. Uh I mean uh somebody made it for me, which is uh I'm getting a bit tired of it in my old age, I might add, making my own bed. But uh I wish I was back on the road at times where somebody else can make it for me. But uh no, we were spoiled rotten, and um as a matter of fact, I think yeah, it might have been the year I won because I know I got sick uh with some form of food poisoning, overindulging obviously, in the in the foig gras and the and uh um not to mention the um uh the the tipple. But um uh I I think on the final day when I won, uh I was um uh uh well I wasn't dehydrated, but uh I didn't have a lot of food in the stomach, and uh but I did have enough energy to um to get there in the finish. But uh no, we enjoyed the houses uh much better than staying in the um uh Savoy Hotel.

Mike Gonzalez 49:07

Yeah, so uh a couple of your matches. I think one was uh against Maurice Bembridge. You beat him six and five, and then uh you beat a guy that uh that uh we visited with uh just briefly and recently, and that was Masters Champion Tommy Aaron. You dispatched him nine and seven before meeting Gene Littler in the final.

Bob Charles 49:30

To win by those margins against the those quality players, uh oh you you wonder uh somebody must have been putting well. Unfortunately, it was your yours truly, but uh uh no well I was making a bunch of birdies and and I think uh the record book shows that uh uh the front nine uh I was shooting 31, 32 on the front nine and and scoring in the mid in the mid-uh sixties, mid to high uh sixties. So uh uh no, it was uh um two two comfortable wins. Uh then I caught up with Gene Lippler, the Gene the Machine, and uh he uh I put the same act on him as I did with the uh with Boris and uh and Tommy. We came to the last hole all square um and uh Gene hit two magnificent wood shots onto the Power 5 uh 18th at um uh at Wentworth, and I hit a sloppy second shot uh which was went a little bit too close to the trees on the right. Anyway, I pitched on about 27 feet uh from the hole and uh so uh not sure who putted first, but uh obviously uh Gene had a two putt for Bertie and uh I uh managed to ease in my twenty-seven footer to um to go into e extra hole. So it was uh it was uh it was uh even a better putt than uh well not much longer putt than uh the one to tie the open. So the tie gene litler was uh uh quite something and and uh the first extra hole I think uh I hit a a four-iron for my second very close to the again. Uh they the first hole it went with was in those days a power five, and uh and I hit a four-iron second uh uh I don't know, three or four feet from the hole, and uh for for a a three. Um so uh that was that. And of course the um uh I didn't know it. And I don't think Gene knew it that uh there was a bereavement in the family. Uh I don't think he was playing under that cloud, uh, but he certainly knew. Uh who was it? Was it uh his wife's parents or somebody passed away? Uh I'm not too sure the details there, but um uh no, Gene was one of the greats of golf and and uh as a he had a simple golf swing, and uh Gene the machine, as they called him, was uh so that was a a feather in my cap to um to take um take him out in the and the 36 holes of match play.

Mike Gonzalez 52:28

Yeah, uh especially with the Eagle on the on the first playoff hole to beat him. Bruce, uh that name, Gene Littler's come up a few times, hasn't it?

Bruce Devlin 52:36

Yes, it sure has. He was like Bob said, he had a beautiful golf swing. He was a actually one of the nicest men that I think has ever played the game of golf. And it was indeed my pleasure, along with I'm sure Bob feels the same way, that uh just to meet Gene and be around him was uh was a lot of fun to be with him.

Bob Charles 52:57

Yeah, he was a he was a quiet man just like myself.

Mike Gonzalez 53:01

Yep, he was. Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends until we teat up again for the good of the game.