Tommy Aaron - Part 2 (The 1973 Masters and the 1969 Ryder Cup)

Intro Music 0:07

Straight down the middle. It went straight down the middle. Then it started to So quite a win.

Mike Gonzalez 0:17

And uh and then we go on Bruce to the big one.

Bruce Devlin 0:20

Yeah, boy, what a what a victory, huh? 73 masters. Tell us, tell us how uh how how you were playing when you went in there.

Tommy Aaron 0:30

Well, I I hadn't played a lot of I usually played a full schedule. I'd play right up through Greensboro. I may skip Tucson or New Orleans, but I didn't miss many tournaments trying to prepare. That particular year I hadn't played a lot of tournaments, and I didn't think my game was in that good a shape. I did play Greensboro, which was the week before. And when I remember driving down to Augusta, I didn't have a a lot of um high hopes, and there was nothing in the practice rounds that led me to believe that something special might happen. And I had an early tea time that first day, and I remember it it was very cold, and I'm warming up on the range, and the shots weren't going that good. But as it so happens in a round, on the first early holes, I hit a particularly good shot or a hole to put that kind of turned things around. And I started playing very well, and I shot 68 the first day I was playing with Peter Oosterhouse, which I was very happy with. And then the middle rounds, uh, I struggled. I was 73, 74 in the middle rounds, and I struggled. I missed a lot of greens and hit a lot of bad shots. And I guess I was very fortunate that third day, I think I shot 40 the front nine, but I was able to shoot 34 on the back nine. And it it was a real struggle. I remember 18. I didn't hit a particularly good drive, and I was way back there. I may have hit a three wood off the T. I remember I took a long iron, instead of trying, I put it just short and just to the right of the green, it rolled up just on the fringe, and I managed to two-put. So I did things like that, just kept me in the tournament. I played the shot that I felt like I could play at that time. I didn't try to do something that I felt like I couldn't do. And so I kept myself in the tournament. I was four shots behind, starting the last day, behind Oosterhouse, and I birdied the first three holes. I made about a 20-footer on the first hole, and the second hole I made a nice butt for a birdie. Then the third hole I hit it very close and made a birdie. And I go to the fourth hee, and I think, well, I'm right back in the tournament, unless the leaders birdie those first three holes. And I don't think they will, so I'm right back in the tournament. And I parred all the way around. I buried the eighth hole, the par five, and I was walking from the ninth green to the tenth tee. There's a little bit of a walk there. Yeah. I'm thinking, well, if I ever had a chance to win this tournament, I've got it today. If I can play a good back nine. Well, I was playing with Johnny Miller, and that tenth hole was playing very long because we'd had that day that it rained out. It was very wet. I hit a nice drive down the left side, but it didn't get all the way down in the bottom. And Johnny did the same thing. I hit a forward, a beautiful shot on the green, and I three-putted. I putted past the hole from about 25 feet and missed that. And then on 11, I hit a very indifferent iron just to the right of the green, which you'll see a lot of players do even today. And I didn't play a very I didn't play a very good pitch, and I missed that putt. So I bought bogey bogey and walking to the 12th tea, I thought, well, I may have lost that chance. All I can do is play these next seven holes the best I can. And I sh just forgot about that. I hit a good shot on 12, and on 13, I hit a drive that went way around the corner. Of course, the T was a little bit up front where it is now. And I had a forehand on the green, and now I'm laying up with a driver and a three-metal to lay up. I hit two beautiful shots there and made a birdie, and then I get to 15. And um, before I teed off that third round, I started swinging a lot better because I thought, well, I'm not gonna try to make the ball go very far, and I'm not gonna try to reach beyond my normal distance. I'm just in the problem, I have to keep the mental discipline that I can do that for 18 holes, what no matter what kind of shot I have. I'm just gonna make a swing and not try to push it. So I got to 15, and that's the only time I got out of that mindset because I wanted the ball to go further. And I tried to hit a little further. Well, I mishit it and it didn't go as far.

Bruce Devlin 5:04

Right.

Tommy Aaron 5:04

And I'm out I'm out there in a spot about 10 or 15 yards behind these mounds that they used to have in the fairway that I dropped balls and practice rounds. I knew that that mound there that was a spot where I could go for the green. But I'm about 10 or 15 yards behind it, so I'm standing there debating. At that time, they had the big mounds on the right side where the gallery stood. Now they put trees over there and they've done away with the mounds. And there are a lot of people from Gainesville there watching me, and I'm thinking, well, I need a birdie to win this tournament, and this is probably my best chance. But I've got to hit this three wood my very best. Anything less than that is not going to get make the grain, but I've got to do this. And I managed to hit the best three wood I could have dropped.

unknown 5:54

Okay.

Tommy Aaron 5:55

50 balls, fifty balls down there, and probably could not hit as good a shot. It pitched just on the right side corner of the grain and it went over the grain. But when I pulled out that three wood, and it was a wood back then, the girl went, Oh God, I can't believe he's going for the grain here. Now that does not do a lot for your confidence at that time. No. But I thought, well, no, I gotta do this. So I played a beautiful pitch from just over the grain. It was a kind of a front left pin. If I don't play a very good pitch and leave it short, there's a good chance I can three-putt. If I play the shot too far, it's gonna go in the pond over the grade. Right. That was a beautiful shot, too. And I pitched it about five feet just below the flag, and I made the putt. And then I managed to par 16, 17, and 18. I uh hit a nice shot off the T with a three-wood, and I'm looking at that front left pin, and I'm about 163 yards up to the front edge of the green, but that is so much hill it plays for me a club longer going up that hill. So it plays like 170 yards. And at that time, I couldn't hit a six-iron that far.

Bruce Devlin 7:12

Right.

Tommy Aaron 7:13

But I think, well, I gotta get close, and to get close, if I land the ball on the green, it's gonna go up on the top level. And too many people are three-putted from up there. I want to keep the ball on the lower level. And I I'm talking, I'm verbalizing out loud to my caddy, I don't really want any input from him. He's trying to talk me into hitting a five-iron, which he's thinking, just get the ball on the green. Right. And I knew what he was thinking, and I kind of brushed him off. I took a six-iron and I hit a beautiful shot. I couldn't hit it better. It landed just short of the green, but it didn't bounce up like I expected it to. But it's right in the fringe with about a 15 or 20 footer right at the flut hole, and I hit a nice putt. It didn't go in, but I went up and tapped it in, and then I signed my card, and they take us over to Butler's cabin to watch the finish of the tournament.

Intro Music 8:04

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 8:04

And I go, I go in, and the members and the chairman say, Congratulations, nice round. That's about all I can say. There's the tournament is still to be decided because JC Steve was playing 17 and he's one shot behind. I sat down beside Nicholas there and we're watching the tournament, and JC had played his second shot in the front bunker on 17 and had played out about eight or ten feet from the hole. He's getting ready to play Nicholas. You got the tournament one. There's no way you're gonna make that putt. Well, you know what happens next, it goes right in. Right. So I think nice observation there, Jack. If you have any more, just if you just keep them to yourself, I don't want to hear them. So he comes to 18, he's got about a 25-footer downhill at that cup, he's over on the right side of the green. So I'm exhausted from the rounds. I'm thinking, I gotta take the attitude he's gonna make this putt. Getting ready. Because yeah, I gotta get mentally ready to play another 18 holes, which I don't feel like doing, but I've got to take the attitude he's gonna make this putt. I've seen it happen too often. Well, fortunately, he for me he did miss the putt. And um so that that was uh a dream come true for me there to win to win that tournament.

Mike Gonzalez 9:25

Yeah, I mean, uh as a as a as a Georgia boy, winning that tournament in Augusta, that had to be something that you thought about on the putting green as a little kid a lot.

Tommy Aaron 9:36

Oh yeah. Yes, it was. Yeah, I've I've stood on that putting green and with Hogan and Sneed and all the players and fantasize about winning that tournament. And I stood there with Tiger Woods and you dream about those things.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

Yeah, you do.

Mike Gonzalez 9:53

So as we continue to look back on that uh on that great victory, uh you'd mentioned a uh uh weather delay. That r final round was actually then played on a Monday, wasn't it?

Tommy Aaron 10:05

On a Monday, that's correct. It was played on a Monday. Uh one thing I want to mention, uh at the champion's dinner, uh someone informed me it's customary for the champion to have dinner with Cliff Roberts. I oh yes, yes, I want to do that. And I said, My parents are here, and I'm not sure they have the proper attire, and I like for them to join us. And they said, That's okay. We'll take care of it. So they were there, which uh was great. And Cliff Roberts said to me, He'd say, Uh, what do you need? Is there anything you need? And I said, No, no, it doesn't get any better than Cliff, this Cliff. So then I said, Well, I want to go home tonight, Cliff, and I don't think I can make that drive, the condition I'm in. And about five minutes later, hit a private plane that flew me back. Oh my god.

Mike Gonzalez 10:54

Oh my god, that's terrific. Well, we want to talk about your experiences at the Masters Dinner and and a little bit more about that victory. I'll just mention a couple of other things about that tournament. Uh Gary Plair missed this one. He was recovering from surgery, but won it the next year. And uh it's the only one he missed from 1957 all the way through 2009. So he made 52 of 53 masters. That's the one he missed. Uh it was the final masters for Gene Sarazen and Ralph Goodall, uh a couple of uh you know, a couple of former champions. Yes. And uh as I remember, that you were the first native Georgian to win the event, right?

Tommy Aaron 11:33

Well, actually, Claude Harman was born in Savannah. Oh, wow. And left there, uh is left there as an infant. Okay. Uh so actually he was a Georgian. And then after I won, I was the first, Larry Moss, hold that pitch on 11 to beat Greg Norman, that famous pit shaw they hold. He's from Columbus, who lives in Columbus now. He may have been from Augusta at that time.

Mike Gonzalez 11:57

Yeah. And we've had Larry on the show to uh recount that win for us as well. Oh, good.

Bruce Devlin 12:02

Yeah, he's been he was great.

Mike Gonzalez 12:04

Bruce, you finished tied for eighth that uh particular year, six back. Do you remember how much money you won? Oh probably wasn't very much. I don't know, I don't know what you did with that$4,750 that you took off.

Bruce Devlin 12:22

Uh well, you know, we we look, Tommy, we look at what's happened to golf today, but I must say that that uh the the the guys that we played with, they were all terrific gentlemen. Well, you know, I mean what diverse uh ways they got into the game, you know, not all of them were college college graduates and plays like that. So, you know, well we come up in a in a great time in the game of golf, I think, because you know, led led by Ani's army.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

Yes, I agree. I completely agree completely. Yeah, they were all tremendous competitors.

Mike Gonzalez 13:02

Uh Tommy, the the the thing I I'm not sure I was aware of until I did a little research, but uh coming into this event, you had 14 second-place finishes in addition to your wins.

Tommy Aaron 13:15

Uh yes. Uh yeah, I think that's right. I tried to count those up and uh I I couldn't remember some of them, but that's that's probably true. I tried to do it one time and I counted maybe 15. And uh anyway, that second year, 63, I finished four times. I tied in Memphis and lost in a playoff, and the next week I finished second at Indianapolis. And then later in the summer at Cleveland, I birded the last four holes to tie Palmer and Lima, and Palmer won the 18-hole playoffs. I had four second place finishes. That was the year guy said I should be doing a lot better. Well I didn't I didn't forget, I didn't forget that one.

Bruce Devlin 13:57

I'm not gonna bring I don't want to bring up the subject, but but you you did have one of the rather porous playoff records, you know. Zero for four.

Tommy Aaron 14:09

I'll I'll agree with that. There's no denying that. I I have to own up to that. Yes. I agree with that.

Bruce Devlin 14:16

You lost to some pretty good players, George Archer twice, and Tony Lemer and I'll Palmer. I mean, you know, that's a group.

Tommy Aaron 14:24

Yes. Yeah, in Memphis, uh I had a two-shot lead going to 17. It was a long par three, uh two or three-hour shot for us, and I had birdied 16, and Lima's body language told me he had given up on winning. He looked like he had just given up when I was two ahead going to 17. We both hit shots on the green. He stepped up to his 30-foot, didn't even look at it, stepped up and hit it, and it goes in. And I missed him. And so now he's got a one-shot, and he gets very interested now with a one-shot lead with one to play. And it started to rain. He hit a beautiful drive, and it was reachable in two. And I hit a drive down the right side near the rope, and the guys were putting their umbrellas up, and I kind of hit the crowd and bounced back. And so I made five and he made four to tie me. Then he won the first hole in a sudden death playoff. So anyway, I had a chance to to win on the 18th. I just didn't make four. Yeah. Uh sometimes you just you aren't good enough to do it at that particular time.

Mike Gonzalez 15:28

Yeah. He he was in uh Tony was in that playoff with Arnold Palmer too at the 1965. Yeah, he was.

Tommy Aaron 15:34

Uh right. Yeah, Pa Palmer shot 67, Lehman and I shot 70 there at uh Beechwood Country Club in Cleveland.

Mike Gonzalez 15:42

Yeah, yeah. Uh and then uh you know the the next time was at the 72 Glenn Campbell LA Open, the George Archer uh with Mike Hill, all three of you in the playoff there.

Tommy Aaron 15:52

Yeah. Uh yes, and um actually uh Archer, I can't remember what he shot, but I think Hill and I shot about the same thing. He shot maybe 67.

Bruce Devlin 16:03

Yeah, you guys shot 68, and uh Archer shot 66.

Tommy Aaron 16:07

Yeah, oh well, shot better than I thought he did then. But Archer was a tremendous player. He came back from a lot of injuries, and he'd come back and play as good, if not better, than he did before, which is very unusual. He had bad elbow and a bad back, and he came back from all those surgeries.

Mike Gonzalez 16:27

Well, we had fun with uh Ben Crenshaw. Bruce will remember uh uh talking to him about his 0-8 playoff record.

Tommy Aaron 16:35

Oh so don't feel bad, Tom. Well, it's all there to read. Anybody can access it if they want to.

Mike Gonzalez 16:42

That's right. Well, you know, the one thing that that we've learned going through and and doing the these interviews with all these great players like yourself, uh you get to the playoff and it's just a crapshoot, isn't it? It's it's sort of a coin toss.

Tommy Aaron 16:54

Yeah, well, yeah, it is. Um at Memphis, I I I guess I didn't have the right mental set for a playoff. I had was so disappointed with him birding the last two holes and me not being able to win that went to that first hole, and I was just kind of out of it. I just I just wasn't there at the time, and I put my second shot in the bunker and made bogey. So I I just mentally wasn't ready. And um at Beachmont there, uh the crowd was huge, and they're of course all for Arnold Palmer. And I played just I just played so-so in that playoff. Actually, at Greensboro, when uh Archer won that tournament, and the first playoff hole there was like 15, and he made about a 30-foot punt. We were both on the green about side by side, and he was a great player. He steps up and holds about a 30-footer, and I missed mine, so the game's over.

Bruce Devlin 17:49

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 17:50

So anything, things like that happen to you. You just you just aren't good enough at that time.

Mike Gonzalez 17:54

Yeah, and George Archer should he could sure putt, couldn't he?

Tommy Aaron 17:58

Oh boy, he could. Some guys told me that on the front side where he was finishing, he made long putts on eight or nine, which was the 17th and 18th hole, just to tie me. So things like that happen to you. And and as I said, Urra, players have to play in such a way that you win. You just don't blow them away a lot of times, like Tiger Woods could do that, win by 12 shots or whatever. But people ask me, Well, how many shots you win by? I said, hell, I was lucky to win by one. What are you talking about? How many shots did I win by?

Mike Gonzalez 18:30

Well, let's uh let's go ahead and talk a little bit about some of your major championship experience. We talked about the Masters victory, but of course you you played a lot of Masters over the years by virtue of that uh victory you had. Yes. Um you were the oldest player to make the cut at age 63 in 2020, weren't you? Or not 2020, that would have been what, about 20 uh it was 20, I guess.

Tommy Aaron 18:54

Yes, it was two it was two thousand, right. Yeah. Yeah, I I was paired with uh Charlie Coo and Gabe Brewer, and um I was trying to remember the first round, I shot 72. I played really well that day. And uh the last hole, I missed the green to the left. It seems like I was behind the trees on the right, and you have to big hit a big slice around those trees, and it I missed the grain to the left. And I put it up and I made about an eight-footer, which is a great putt to make to shoot 72. And I go in the scoring trailer and I finish my card, I walk out, and the writers are saying, Do you know you beat Tiger Woods today? I said, Well, what's that got to do with it? What what so so what? I got three more rounds to play. What are you making of this? So I did, so what? Well, I was happy with my 72. That's all I 72, that's all I wanted to talk about. Yeah. And so anyway, the next day, um I um I think I shot maybe 39 on the front nine, and I was really nervous. God, I was antsy. I knew I had a chance to make the cut, and I was really antsy and nervous over every shot. And on 11, I made about a 20-footer for Birdie, and all of a sudden it's like, God, I think I can do this now. And I played real well, part all the way in to shoot 72. But like I said earlier, sometimes you aren't going real good, but you'll hit a particular shot at a particular time, and it just turns around, around for you. And I I actually Manuel Del Torre had come down, and he was in the crowd, and that night at dinner he said, you know, when you made that putt at 11, your body demeanor totally changed. And I thought that's just like Manuel. Probably nobody else noticed that.

Bruce Devlin 20:50

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 20:50

But he was he was so observant, he said, You weren't this you were a different player.

Bruce Devlin 20:56

After that, yeah. Interesting.

Tommy Aaron 20:59

Very interesting, isn't it?

Bruce Devlin 21:00

Oh, yeah.

Tommy Aaron 21:01

That was right. I hadn't said anything to anybody about it, but that was exactly right. I was going to mention it to him earlier, but he brought it up. I had a good I had a good local friend uh there watching me play, uh, Chub Bates, and I asked him one time, did you notice any change in me in that round? He said, No. I noticed people just don't observe that closely. But Manuel did, he did. And he could see that.

Mike Gonzalez 21:26

Yeah, yeah. Well, you had a few other good finishes at the Masters, didn't you? I mean, we'll talk about uh some of these 67. You were uh in top ten, tight eighth, uh the the year Gabe Brewer won, and uh and then uh you played well in that year with the Roberto Di Vincenza insight, which we'll talk about the year Bob Goldby then was the winner. Um the next year, again, another top ten, George Archer wins. The next year, top you know, T five, Billy Casper wins. I mean, you had a really good stretch leading up to your winning seventy three. Yes, I did. Now, Tommy, one thing one thing we didn't talk about. That I want you to talk about first before we get to this Di Vincenzo thing. When you won in 73 and you were reviewing your card for the final round with Johnny Miller as your marker.

unknown 22:13

Right.

Mike Gonzalez 22:14

You caught something, didn't you?

Tommy Aaron 22:15

Yes, I did. That's the way it works. That's the way it's supposed to work. We sat down at the table and um I'm looking at my card and I go right to 13. I said, Johnny, you put five here, I made four. You remember I had a drive and an iron on the ground? He said, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he changed it and he initialed it. That's the way it's supposed to work if you check your scorecard. But if you walk away, it anything might happen. But people don't understand the seriousness of that because uh, you know, the friendly guy will play and they say, Oh, yeah, he shot 72. We know what he shot. And so they think that's it. But um, I did I did catch that. I didn't think much of it because that's happened before uh to other players. And uh I did mention it, I guess, in the press room and the writer mentioned it. And when I saw Johnny, he says, What are you trying to do? I'm not trying to do anything to you. I'm just telling you what happened, Johnny. I'm just checking my scorecard. Yeah, right. I'm not trying why are you taking it so personally? I didn't do anything to you, idiot. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess I don't know what people think, but anyway, well, uh odd that he would say, What were you doing to me? Yeah, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 23:28

Well, uh, right or wrong, uh, you know, the public reaction to the incident of 68 was probably unfair to several people, including yourself. Yes. Because, as you said, as a player, you're responsible for knowing the rules, you're responsible for checking your card, you're responsible for showing up to the first T on time.

Bruce Devlin 23:47

Yeah, you can't blame anybody else.

Mike Gonzalez 23:50

Right. Yeah, so take us through that. This was uh uh you were the marker for Roberto Di Vincenzo. Right. Roberto was playing on his 45th birthday. And why don't you just kind of take us through the day? Because he was in contention. He he he came out like a house of fire, didn't he?

Tommy Aaron 24:06

Yes, he did. As I recall, he holed his second shot on the first hole for an Eagle. He played great all the way around. And um he came to um he came to 17 and hit a beautiful second shot, like a pitching wedge. Uh it could have been a he could have walked up and finished and tapped it in. And I was on the back of the green working hard to get down in two putts, and my first putt was well outside his. I'm working hard to make this second putt. And I did, and he stepped in and tapped his in real quickly. We walked with a Tucson, we walked real quickly to the 18th grain. I didn't have a chance to record that score. Usually I try to keep up.

Bruce Devlin 24:47

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 24:48

And we hit our drives on 18, and he was over behind the trees on the right. I've heard writers say he hooked his drive. No, he hit it to the right, he sliced it. And then they say he hooked his second shot. He didn't. He was trying to slice it around the trees, and he didn't slice it up. It missed the green and went down to the left. I'm on the green and two, and I'm watching this, and I'm thinking, God, if he makes four here, maybe he can win the tournament. He put it up. He missed about an eight-footer. We sit down, and I'm thinking so much about him. Too bad he made a five there. He could have made a four and probably one. I put five on eighteen, and without thinking, I put four on seventeen because that I had that on my mind so much. And I handed his card, and he was so disappointed that he was sitting there with his head in his hands. They have pictures of him. It wasn't after the, it was before this occult.

Bruce Devlin 25:42

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 25:42

And and Charlie Coe ducks under the rope. They just had a table out in the open. People are leaning over the rope, trying to see what you were doing, trying to talk to you. And um, Charlie Coe says, They want you in the press room, Roberto. He grabbed his card, he scribbled his name and was gone. Boom. Just like that. And I'm sitting there checking my card three or four times, and I'm thinking, my God, I I hope that card was correct. He didn't even look at it. So I'm looking at the scoreboard and I'm looking at his card and I'm thinking there's something wrong here. And I looked at his card and I went right to 17. I thought, oh my God, I put four there. So the guy sitting there working, he had not taken the cards. They were just sitting on the table in front of him. And I said, Where's Roberto? I knew he was in the press room. He said, Well, he's been in the press room. I said, You better get him back here. And he said, What's wrong? I said, he signed an incorrect card. So he comes back and I said, Roberto, God, I'm sorry, I don't know what to say, but I put a four down on 17. He said, Okay, let's change it. I said, No, we can't change it, Roberto. And then he, it was like he just said that like a reaction. Then he realized what I was saying, and he was okay. I said, No, we can't do that. So then we sat down, and I sat down with him while Gobi's group finished, and a bunch of groups finished, and they didn't have a place to sit down at that table to check their card. They had to kneel down, and I'm just sitting there with Roberto. Of course, he's kind of hanging his head, he's so disappointed. And then I sat there for a long time, and nobody approached me as to what happened. No writers, nobody talked to me, anything. So I go up to the locker room and I'm in the locker room for 30 or 40 minutes, waiting, getting my nobody ever approached me. Nobody ever talked to me. A writer never asked me what happened. I go out to my car and I'm getting ready to leave. My wife's waiting on me. I'm gonna drive home. And we leave. And um nobody ever talked to me. And the next day, Jesse Outler with the Atlanta Constitution said I fled from the scene.

Bruce Devlin 27:48

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 27:50

So I thought, what? All you all you gotta do is talk to me and tell me to come to the press room. All you gotta do is talk. Nobody ever approached me. I don't know if they understood what in the hell it happened.

Bruce Devlin 28:02

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 28:02

But anyway, I got yeah, I got a lot of big press about that because we felt so sorry for Roberto, and they didn't want to blame anybody. They wanted to blame me, or they wanted to blame the rule, or they wanted to blame somebody. But anyway, it was a terrible thing. But it's happened before. And Doug Sanders is playing the Pensacola Open one year, and he had a four-shot lead after two rounds, and somebody started talking to him, and he turned around and walked away and did not sign his card, and he was disqualified. So when you sit down to do that, it's a very important thing you're doing.

Bruce Devlin 28:37

Yes, it is.

Tommy Aaron 28:37

And I don't, and I don't think the weekend golfer realized the imp realizes the importance of it. But uh I felt terrible about it.

Mike Gonzalez 28:46

But you know in fairness, Roberto accepted responsibility for it. He didn't blame anybody but himself.

Tommy Aaron 28:51

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 28:52

Absolutely. And in retrospect, he had a wonderful Hall of Fame career, won majors, and you know, because that thankfully wasn't his only chance. But, you know, you described the scene, Tommy, coming off that green, literally just a table and a couple of chairs sitting there out in the very open, wasn't it?

Tommy Aaron 29:08

Very open. People are trying to talk to you, they're leaning over, trying to say, What'd you shoot? or something. You're trying to get rid of them, and they're tapping you on the shoulder, trying to talk to you. And yeah, it was chaotic. They don't do that now, they put them on, they take them to the clubhouse so they're isolated, or they put them in a trailer so they're isolated and can do that. The Augusta National made that change too. Yeah, I was just so involved in him trying to make four, but I wish he had just sat there just a couple of minutes longer and kind of collected himself, but he was so upset. And I can understand while he was.

Mike Gonzalez 29:43

Absolutely. Augusta did make a change the following year. They put up a score extent, so you had a little privacy to do your business after the round.

Tommy Aaron 29:51

Absolutely.

Mike Gonzalez 29:52

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 29:53

One thing I want to say, for years I didn't even say Roberto said, Let's change it. I thought, no. Uh, he didn't mean anything by that. It was just a reaction on his part. And when I said no, no, we can't do that, Roberto, then he was okay. I didn't even say anything about it until just here we are. And I mentioned it. And I'm not saying that in any criticism of him.

Bruce Devlin 30:15

No, of course you're not.

Tommy Aaron 30:16

And I I didn't mention it to anybody for years and years because it sounds like I'm throwing him under the bus or something, and I I did not want to do that.

Bruce Devlin 30:24

No.

Mike Gonzalez 30:26

So uh you've been to a lot of master's dinners. Put uh put us and our listeners into that room, if you will, and tell us uh a little bit about that experience.

Tommy Aaron 30:38

Okay. Well, they have uh uh cocktail hour where you have cocktails and hors d'euros, and it's in the champions locker room, and it spills over to the porch outside that overlooks Magnolia Drive. And and the guys are coming in, and I'm trying to meet the young guys and wish them luck, and the other guys I'm trying to wish them and luck and try to meet them, and everybody pretty much is doing that, and they're trying to just make a connection with the different players. And then we go into the bigger room just off the locker room for the dinner, and it's an open seating dinner. You can sit wherever you want to. Uh at the front table, Crenshaw is there, and the chairman, who's the new chairman now, and the new winner, and anybody else that wants to can sit there. We take a group photo, and then you can sit down, you can sit wherever you want to, and Crenshaw makes some remarks, welcoming the guys back, congratulating the winner, and then the chair, new chairman gets up and makes a few welcoming remarks. And he may mention any changes that they've made on the course. And then the floor is pretty open. You can say anything you want to. We have dinner, there isn't a lot of discussion going on at dinner, but now in the last few years, people are getting up and talking more, like Nicholas and Palmer and Player and Floyd this year. Whereas in the past, after the dinner was over, the new champions recognized that that was pretty much the end of it. But now players are talking, they're talking about how much it means to them, how much it meant to their career, and they may talk a little bit about the rounds they played, and it's great to hear that. And of course, Billy Casper, uh, he's not with us anymore. But Gary Player is a great speaker, and he always has a lot of very appropriate things to say. He got up this year early, he in Japanese, he recognized the winner and said a lot of things, very well said, to congratulate him. And I couldn't he he was speaking English, which he does not do fluently, and very low, and I was kind of in the back, and I didn't pick up a lot of what he said, but the other guys really liked the comments he made.

Bruce Devlin 33:00

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 33:01

And then uh after the dinner, I remember this year, someone said, uh, Mark, tell them about that first year you played here as an a as an amateur. And he said, Well, okay, I'll do that. And he said, it was he was making fun of himself. He said, I won the national amateur, so the next year I'm playing in the masters. And the first day I'm so nervous I can hardly tee the ball up on the first T. And I shot something like 42 on the front nine. I'm playing with Freddie uh um, I'm sorry, Fuzzy Zeller. We get over to 11. And after a pretty good drive, I hit this big high hook, and I didn't know where it went. Well, it hit the scoreboard. It knocked a hole in the scoreboard. He said, I'll go, I'll go walking down to the official. He said, Did you see my ball go in the water? He says, No, it hit the scoreboard up here and knocked a hole in the scoreboard. He says, Now I'm really embarrassed. All those people up on the 12th tier watching me down there, and they're looking at the scoreboard. And I dropped the ball and I chunked it in the water, and he made some kind of higher in the score. And so I finished, and my dad and I are driving back, and he says, Well, that's okay, Mark. You did okay considering. He says, You know, dad, I'll probably never play in this tournament again. But it was okay. But you know, 25 years later, I won the tournament. Isn't that a great story? Yeah, it sure is. That's a great story, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 34:28

Only only only in America. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I and Tommy, I think uh Bruce and I have probably had a chance to talk to at least 12 or 13 other Masters winners and been able to do what we did with you and recalling their victories and have them talk a little bit about their experiences at Augusta National.

Tommy Aaron 34:48

Yeah, that's great. You have you have a lot of experiences there that sometimes you'll forget about and somehow may say something that'll jog your memory of an incident of something that happened. They're all in the back of your mind, and I can remember things that happened better than I can remember names. Uh, but I can remember incidences and things that happened and shots that were hit. Just I remember Bruce and winning there at Selma Arena uh with those fiberglass clubs and uh things like that I'll remember. Yeah. And uh anyway, uh at my age I can't remember people's name.

Bruce Devlin 35:24

Well, I can remember one other thing that you did too, Mr. Aaron. You had a uh nice career on the senior tour. You're winning three million six hundred and forty-two thousand dollars. That was a nice way to uh go through your fifties and sixties, wasn't it?

Tommy Aaron 35:43

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I enjoyed the senior tour. Um, when I quit playing at 45, the senior tour was really getting started at that time. And I thought, well, in five years when I'm 50, I'll be fun playing the seven or eight tournaments. Well, all of a sudden, when I turned 50, I'm playing 25 tournaments, which I enjoyed doing. But my wife says, You want to do that again? We've already done that. No, that once already. Yeah, Jimmy says, You want to do that again? I said, Yeah, I like competitive golf, I like it. So I enjoyed it, and um, I did was fortunate enough to win one tournament in Hawaii. Yeah, and uh I I played fair, but I didn't have much preparation. Those five years, I had spent 20 years playing really hard, working hard, playing a lot of tournaments, and I just couldn't put golf on the background. I wish now, in retrospect, that I had practiced more and played more to get ready for the senior tour, but I didn't. But I enjoyed the senior tour. It's it's really going great now. Actually, we played we'd play uh maybe seven or eight hundred thousand dollar tournaments or bigger than the tournaments I played on the PJ Tour. Now the prices they've gone up. I I looked in the I don't look at the paper a lot, but I looked at the paper recently at I think a senior player won any one uh like seven hundred thousand dollars. I think I won, I won seventy thousand. Yeah. But anyway, it's it yeah, quite a difference. But yeah, I like the senior tour a lot.

Bruce Devlin 37:16

But your your your shifting from the regular tour to the senior tour is pretty pretty popular back uh in our era because w we didn't play much after we were 40, 42, 43, and then we took those took all those years off. It's hard to catch up because I can recall one question I asked Mr. Hogan one day. I said to him, Ben, uh how many days a year do you take off? You know, yeah. Do you take like he said to me, he looked at me like I handed him a snake, and he said, he said, Take a day off, Bruce. Are you crazy? He said, You miss a day of practice. It takes you two days to get back to where you were. So, you know, when you take the five years off like you did, it it it it it takes a toll on your game, no doubt about it.

Tommy Aaron 38:03

It takes a while, and I've heard him say he loved hitting golf balls. He loved to practice. He didn't think of it as work. No, he loved to do that, and I enjoy practicing too. I enjoy hitting balls. I don't do much of it now, but I enjoy it.

Mike Gonzalez 38:16

Tommy, who were some of the uh the the the great ball strikers that you really admired coming up through the game?

Tommy Aaron 38:25

Well, uh, I know um people ask me that, and uh that term ball striker is kind of pretty much new to me. If a guy hit 13 or 14 greens in a round, or if I thought he was, as they say, a good ball striker. Everybody hit the ball very well. Some players they would hit it and it'd have a little bit of a different sound. Maybe that's what they're talking about when they say ball striker. But if a guy hits 14, 15, 16 greens, he's a good player. He's a good ball striker, if that's the way they want to express it. Yeah, but they were all good. They were all good. Uh Nicholas, Weisskoff, Palmer, they were all very good players. They I played with them a lot. They they drove down the fairway most of the time, and they hit most of the greens and regulation. And I had a friend caddian for me once in Florida, and I was paired with Nicholas, and we we finished the round. This was a very unusual guy. Anyway, and it was a very windy day, and the greens were very hard. He said, Well, that Nicholas didn't impress me that much. I said, What are you talking about? He says, Well, he just hit the ball in the green over here. I said, What did you expect? I mean, he's hitting, he must have hit 18 greens on a windy day with the greens very hard. That impressed me. But he said, Well, I like the way he hovered his club over the grass and dressed. And so I said, Okay, whatever, whatever it is. And I said, Yes, he does that. But it was so funny for him saying that. And I guess he thought he's going to hit it right by the hole every time. But under those conditions, to hit it 15 or 20 feet from the hole was a real good shot. The change that the changes I see at Augusta, which I never hear anybody talking about, I did hear Nicholas mention it once. The greens are so much softer with this bent grass. They you see whole ball marks in the greens with big plugs knocking out. You never saw that when I played those greens. You might see a little skid mark because it was Bermuda was starting to pop through and it was overseed with rye, and they were very hard. And a lot of holes, like that 17th hole, I'd try to land the ball just over that front bunker and hope it stopped on the green. Now they hit it right in there and they back it up. I never saw that happen when I played there. So they're much softer, they're fast, they're much faster, but they're much softer than they used to be. And I did hear Nicholas mention that once. The course is a lot longer. They talk about that, but length doesn't matter today. It doesn't matter how long you make the course. But if you have rough and hard greens, it makes a difference. Absolutely.

Mike Gonzalez 41:11

Let's uh briefly talk about your writer cup career. You had a couple of chances as a player to participate. The first one in 69, which uh 69, which is uh was at Burkdale, and uh and Sam Sneed and Eric Brown were the captains. Uh it was a tie, and uh you can tell us a little bit more about that because it was a famous tie, wasn't it?

Tommy Aaron 41:31

It was. It was a famous tie, and um uh they don't do that now, but Sneed took a very casual approach to these matches. And he said one time, I think we could bring two or three teams over that could beat this team. And that was kind of the Lase attitude about it, which was not good. And I walked out to the eighth grade with Nicholas and Jacqueline finishing there because we knew it was very important, and they had pretty similar putts, and Nicholas made his first. It looked like it was a spontaneous reaction to me. He hadn't thought this and planned this. How could you plan something like that? He picked up his ball, Jacqueline's ball, and handed it to him. And to me, it looked like it was a spontaneous thing, but it was a great thing to do. Yeah, it turned out great, but I'd I and it it would I would like to have seen Jaclyn make the putt, myself personally. Yeah, but Nicholas conceded, and it's all history now, and it worked out fine.

Mike Gonzalez 42:29

My understanding is Sam wasn't too crazy about that concession.

Tommy Aaron 42:32

He he was not very happy about it, and a lot of players were not very happy. I'd like to have seen Jacquel make it, but that's the way it played out, and that's okay.

Mike Gonzalez 42:41

Yeah, and then uh uh four years later you got a win at uh at Muirfield. This was Jackie as your captain with Bernard Wright. And uh I think that's the first year they added Ireland to the team name, so it it was then known as the G B and I team.

Tommy Aaron 42:56

Yes. Jackie Burke took a much more serious approach to it. He he made us realize how important it was, how good these players play, and how good we were expected to play. I didn't play very good there. I had um actually after I won the Masters, I never played nearly as well as I did before I won the Masters. And uh no, not nearly as good. And I didn't play very good there, but I'd played well enough to make the Ryder Cup team. But he he took a totally different approach. It was very important. And he had the meeting meetings and he it was impressed upon us that he expected the best out of us.

Mike Gonzalez 43:37

So Tommy, we always uh wrap this up by asking our guests a couple of questions, and we always get some interesting responses. So, Bruce, why don't you start?

Bruce Devlin 43:48

So, Tommy, here's my first question. If you knew today if you could take what you know today and go back when you were First started on the tour, would you have done anything different?

Tommy Aaron 44:05

Well, I don't know. Um, you know, you can always speculate on that and say, I would have done this and I would have done that and I would have been better, but that's pure speculation. You just don't know. Um I I don't know. I uh I may have tried to have done some things differently. There was there were not the sport psychologists around at that time. And I would have tried to maybe explore that more about how to handle myself better mentally on the golf course. Um, but uh I I if I sat down I might think of other things, but that comes to mind.

Bruce Devlin 44:45

We've heard some interesting uh replies to it, and I know. Yeah, we have. And now Mike's got a couple of questions too.

Mike Gonzalez 44:53

Well, uh one's a bonus question. This is a new one, Bruce, which I think we'll ask Lee Trevino tomorrow when we have him. So we're gonna put you in a time machine, uh uh Tommy. We're gonna put you in a time machine and take you back to your early years on the tour. And on the time machine, you can take one club from today back with you. Which club would you take?

Tommy Aaron 45:15

Well, uh gosh. I think the big-headed metal driver makes a difference.

Bruce Devlin 45:24

Oh, there you go.

Tommy Aaron 45:26

Um, you can hit the ball m pretty much all over the face and get a pretty good shot. Well, those persimmon clubs, it wasn't that way. You had to hit a very small spot to get a good shot. There you go. And I saw the golf ball is a lot better. It doesn't curve as much, it doesn't hook and slice as much as it used to. So the driver is a big thing. Now, I hit the modern day irons, I can't tell much difference in the iron, personally.

Bruce Devlin 45:56

They just go a little further.

Tommy Aaron 45:58

It they just go a little further. If you mishit them a little bit, rather than coming up short in the bunker, they may just get over the bunker. Right. And that's the thing that I noticed, but I don't notice a big difference. How these guys hit their six irons 230 yards, I have no clue. No, I never understand that at all. But um Nicholas never hit his nine iron over 125 or 30 yards. He didn't try to.

Bruce Devlin 46:23

Yeah.

Tommy Aaron 46:24

If he had a longer shot, he'd take an eight iron. 150 yards, he'd a seven, and then they're hitting a pitching way, he says 150 yards. And it works for them.

Mike Gonzalez 46:32

So that was back when a nine-iron was a nine-iron. Today it's probably got a seven on the same club, right?

Tommy Aaron 46:38

Well, it may be a nine on the bottom, but it may be a seven or eight, right.

Bruce Devlin 46:42

So, Tommy, one other question, Tommy, for me before Mike asks his last one. How would you like to be remembered?

SPEAKER_03 46:55

I gotta think I gotta think about that for a while.

Bruce Devlin 47:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

Um I guess I got it. The game. And play by the rules. And respected the game. And respected the game.

Mike Gonzalez 47:16

Yeah, you know, Bruce. I think that's a great place to leave it, and I'll tell you what, I've been delighted to uh be with this gentleman to uh help him recount his great career in golf, particularly that uh wonderful master's victory in 1973. Uh uh Bruce, it's been a delight having Tommy Aaron with us.

Bruce Devlin 47:35

It has, and I gotta say one more thing about Tommy Aaron. If you if you uh went to all of the players that ever played golf with him and asked him what sort of guy he was, they'd all say he was a true gentleman, and that's who you were, Tommy Aaron. Thank you so much for your friendship.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Thank you. Thanks to you, too, Bruce. And thank you, Mike.

Mike Gonzalez 47:55

Thanks, Tommy.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

I enjoyed it. Thanks for having me.

Bruce Devlin 47:59

You were great, buddy. Thank you.

Mike Gonzalez 48:01

Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends until we tee it up again for the good of the game. So long, everybody.

Intro Music 48:22

Whack down the fairway. It went smack down the fairway. Then it started to slice just smidge off line. It headed for two, but it bounced off nine. My caddy says long as you're still in the state, you're okay.