Hale Irwin - Part 1 (The Early Years)

Intro Music 0:07

Straight down the middle. It went straight down the middle. Then it started to do that.

Mike Gonzalez 0:15

All right, welcome to another edition of FORE the Good of the Game. And Bruce, I have two thoughts today as we get ready to introduce this guest. First, I don't know that we've had too many guests with the broad body of work that this fella has amassed throughout his entire career. And secondly, he's the only guest we've had that I'm sure can name the starting lineup for the 1964 St. Louis Cardinals.

Bruce Devlin 0:42

Well, that hits very close to home. Now you've sort of given away who we've got today, but to you know to back up, back up what you just said. Here's a man that made the cut 79 times in 92 majors, won three U.S. opens, uh, had 83 victories worldwide, 45 of them coming as a champions tour winner. And it is indeed a great pleasure to have with us today, Hale Irwin. Hale. Thanks for joining, Mike and I.

Hale Irwin 1:15

Well, Bruce, it's uh been a while since you and I have connected, and it's uh it's wonderful to talk about some of the old times, the old players, and and how that's morphed into today's game, which is a very exciting and dynamic game, uh different than what you and I played, certainly. But uh dynamic, nevertheless.

Mike Gonzalez 1:33

Great to have you this morning. Uh, how many of those starters in 64 can you remember, Hale? Oh, 64. New York, you know, beat the Yankees in seven games.

Hale Irwin 1:46

Uh I think we had uh oh, what's his name at third base? Uh uh another guy shortstop. I think well done, Bill. Uh I think Shanahan was a third.

Mike Gonzalez 2:04

Yeah, yeah. Actually, uh by then Mike Shannon was in right field because Kenny Boyer was playing third, right? Yeah. Who's who's on first?

Hale Irwin 2:14

Yeah, yeah. Who was on second base?

Mike Gonzalez 2:20

And of course, Bob Gibson on the mound, you'll never forget the great Bob Gibson.

Hale Irwin 2:25

He he he damn near single-handedly won that. Boy, the way he pitched and with very short rest, and I'd hate to face that man.

Mike Gonzalez 2:34

I'll sh before we get to you to your your uh career and growing up and everything, one quick Bob Gibson stat, which you probably know. Bob Gibson pitched in three World Series, pitched nine games. How many innings do you think he pitched in nine games?

Hale Irwin 2:49

He was, I would guess if it wasn't a full complement of 81 innings, it would be very close.

Mike Gonzalez 2:55

It was 81 innings.

Hale Irwin 2:56

Yep.

Mike Gonzalez 2:57

And seven nine inning games. He pitched one game, eight innings, and went one ten innings in the other. Right. Isn't that something?

Hale Irwin 3:03

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 3:03

You never see that.

Hale Irwin 3:06

He was a marvelous athlete.

Mike Gonzalez 3:08

Anyway, we as as Bruce said, we've got the great Hale Irwin with us uh today, and uh so delighted to have him. And and Hale, as we've talked about, we're here to tell your story, and that generally begins at the beginning. So uh your story sort of at least starts with birth in Joplin, Missouri, as I understand. Why don't you just take us through uh growing up as a young man? Oh boy.

Hale Irwin 3:28

Well, uh my my parents, my mother was uh an oaky. My my father lived in southwest Missouri. Um he was a bit older than she. And uh I was my parents, after they married, they lived in Miami, Oklahoma, which is in the very north uh east corner of Oklahoma. But the nearest hospital, I guess, I say that because I'm not sure Miami Head Hospital, but Joplin, Missouri did. And maybe that's where her doctor practiced, but that's where I was born in Joplin, Missouri. I never lived there, but other than those few days as born, then uh I lived in Miami for uh as a baby, and then we moved just across the line into Baxter Springs, Kansas, uh shortly thereafter. And that's where I grew up. Uh in fact, I've got some pictures over here on the wall of that little nine-hole dirt sand green golf course where I played. But uh St. Louis Cardinals were my favorite team then, Mike. Uh my uh next door neighbor, he listened to Harry Carey on the radio every day, and I'd he'd sit under his shade tree and listen to Harry Carey, and I'd go out there and listen with him. But uh I got into all the neighborhood stuff. It's a small town, and baseball was part of it, you know, sandlock football was part of it, uh, pickup basketball games was part of it. And but golf was something I could do on my own. My father played, he wasn't a pro. He he he played rarely, but he did take old clubs, he'd cut the shafts, wrap the shaft in electrical tape, and that's how I kind of got started with just a few clubs. But I enjoyed it because I didn't need somebody else to play catch with or to shoot with, or I could do that on my own. And uh he would take me out to this little course every now and again, and I just I liked it. And then as I got a little older, my mom would take me out there with a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and leave me most of the day and come and get me later on to go to baseball practice or whatever it was. And that's just kind of where I fell in love with the game. Um and there are pictures up on the wall here of me at age four with the golf club. Now, I've I've never had a lesson, uh, so those are just raw, this is what it was like lessons. I mean swing. But uh we moved to Colorado, to Boulder, Colorado, when I was 14, went eighth grade on. And uh my love of the game I was still playing baseball. That was sort of the game that uh golf transcended all the games ultimately, but baseball kind of kept me going, and I had my uncle sponsored a team and I got into that. But we initially we stayed in a little efficiency motel right across the street from a a daily golf course, and I ended up going over there to Caddy, and I would take those caddy rings for $2.75 for a single, and I would go pay $2.25 for Green's fees, and they'd leave me 50 cents to have a drink. But I that's how I got started. There was no rain, so you played.

Mike Gonzalez 6:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Hale Irwin 6:34

Caddy, then I'd go pay and play. And that's it just evolved. And I I don't need to get into all those details, but each year it got a little better than the next and the next and uh into high school and played football and basketball and golf in the spring, and as all kids do, they improve in whatever they're doing, and they grow and they mature, and and football became um my way into college. Uh I got a full ride scholarship to play football at the University of Colorado. I didn't know where my golf was going. Um idea. But it was always the common denominator in every season. And uh so I I look at football as a and I very much enjoyed it. Um I had some great teammates, great long-lasting friendships are made. Um but every injury I got, I'd if I could, I'd limp out or I'd run out to the golf course to see if that affected my swing any. And I wish some of some of them would have, but uh so ultimately at uh I I was the back of my mind, and Bruce knows this as well, back then you couldn't really talk about being a professional because the rules stated your intent, you became a professional. Yeah, okay. And so uh you had to kind of keep it all inside, and and I I wanted uh to kind of talk about it. I did by virtue of a stroke of luck. My um football coach, he called Dal Finsterwal down at the Broadmoor, and and I went down there to see Dow. And you know, Dow said, Can you hit a hook? Can you hit a fade? Can you hit it low? Can you hit it high? You know, there's things that you you try to do, and you can make no comment on whether someone's going to succeed, but you often felt good that I could hit the shots that Dow asked me to hit. But it wasn't, I I did win the NCAA golf term my senior year. And that was the catalyst that said, hey, at least I can win against my peer group. I I didn't get to play a lot of golf in the summer. I worked as a laborer, I had a job, so I didn't get to play a lot of golf. But that was that was a catalyst that said, let's go down to the PGA qualifying school and see if you can make it in. The rest is history.

Bruce Devlin 8:49

Yeah. And a lot of history that is, too. Boy, what a great career. Hale, you mentioned something that uh a lot of our players that we've spoken to have mentioned, and that is that they've played another sport, not only one, maybe two or three sports. And they all feel that that was uh a great, great benefit for them to relative to golf. Do you have any thoughts in that regard?

Hale Irwin 9:14

I do, Bruce. I I have tried to counsel every kid I can, certainly every parent, uh every coach, to let those kids go do other things if they want. I think it's great cross-training, not only physically but mentally. I think it's great to be on a team where you understand your position in the team, but still, if you don't do your job, the team breaks down. There you go. But golf is such an individual sport that uh I think that kind of training really helps, vice versa. And I think the hand-eye coordination from any of the other sports is great. The physical conditioning and all the other sports lends itself to golf. So I, while kids want to, I would say let them. Don't get in their way, because as you know and I know, the the stairway to the top of any sport, but particularly in golf, is littered with uh the corpse of many wannabes.

Bruce Devlin 10:09

There you go. And that's right.

Hale Irwin 10:11

And and you really education is number one, get that education because that will help you make the right determination of where you're going to go in your life. And secondly, do all the sports. And they will they will fall by the wayside themselves. You'll find the ones that you want to do. It doesn't matter. You'll find your way into the endeavor in which you you want to go. And if golf's it, well, you've got so much good training from the other sports. Uh swimming is a great sport. Now, is football the way to go? Maybe if you really like it. Yeah, you can't deny it. Uh, basketball, baseball, all those other ones, they're they're great to do it.

Bruce Devlin 10:52

So, Hal, when you went to uh when you went to uh qualifying school, uh did you make it easily or was it a battle?

Hale Irwin 11:03

Well, this was the first school that was held in the spring. As you well know, back in your day, Bruce, uh, I don't know if they had even had qualifying schools. It may be if you were a PGA member, you could come out and play. But there had to be some credentials to get out there. But this was the first spring school.

Bruce Devlin 11:26

Right.

Hale Irwin 11:26

I think there may have been a couple of fall schools prior to this, but uh when I reported down there, there were over a hundred players, I think there were like 120, and we were vying for 15 spots. And the the schedule for the the week was we believe Thurs uh 18 on Thursday, 18 on Friday, 36 on Saturday, a rest day on Sunday, 18 on Monday, 18 on Tuesday, 36 on Wednesday.

Bruce Devlin 11:54

Boy.

Hale Irwin 11:54

To determine who was going to make well, you know, for me, I'm just coming out of football. Uh physically, I I felt great. Now, would my golf game prove to be sufficient enough to get one of those cards? Well, it did. Uh I I think I finished fifth or sixth, maybe, or seventh. It didn't matter. It I got one of those valued 15 spots. Uh Bob Dixon was in that, if you remember Bob, of course. He led that qualifying. He was a U.S. amateur British Open or British Amateur champion at the same time. And um Jim Thorpe's brother, Chuck Thorpe, was leading going to the last day, and and and Bob caught him, but it didn't matter. B.R. McClendon, Randy Wolfe, those guys.

Bruce Devlin 12:44

Right.

Hale Irwin 12:45

Um, all good friends. And uh once I got onto the tour, which was several weeks later in Memphis in 1968, I saw all you good players, and I was just, oh my, have I got a lot of work to do? Oh boy, I thought I thought it was hard before. It looks impossible now.

Mike Gonzalez 13:05

How did your game develop as a as a young man uh up until that time in 1968 when you turned up for qualifying school? Was it a was it a steady progression or were there some step changes that you really you really found had some breakthroughs in certain aspects of your game?

Hale Irwin 13:23

Well, Micah, it's a good question, and I'm not sure I can adequately answer it because as I said, my my golf was rather cyclical in that living in college, really developing my game, if you wish, as a teenager was in Colorado. And it's uh it can be a seasonal challenge. Uh but when I was in high school playing golf or playing football in the fall, well, you know, maybe again on that odd Saturday if it was nice and play a few holes or that odd weekend of same or into basketball. Now, once you get into spring in Colorado, it's it can still be dicey. Um my game, and I didn't ever have a teacher. Now, in a lot of respects, I think that was probably the single best thing that ever happened to me as far as professional goes, because I I learned what I could do, and uh, and I I could adapt on the on the fly versus perhaps some of today's players which are told what to do and can't adapt until they get back into their coach. I wanted someone like the devil to talk to me because he is a proven winner. He was there. And I I would have a hard time listening to somebody else. Um, but anyway, be that as it may, my uh my development kind of came not so much in what great short game and then long game came around later. No, it just all kind of evolved at the same time because I I didn't have a year-round opportunity to play. It was more intense during the springtime, and then I'd start working in the summer, and I'd get to play some state tournaments. But if I took any time off, my my dad and my uncle, who owned the company, I had to make up that time in overtime. So there were no freebies. There was no freeway in there. As much as I cajoled and pleaded, no, you make up the time.

Bruce Devlin 15:12

Get back to work, boy.

Hale Irwin 15:13

Back to work was it. So uh I I think the intensity was probably more ground into me, and Bruce will speak to that. My intensity sometimes gets in my own way. But that was I had a short period of time which developed my skills, and that's what I had to do.

Mike Gonzalez 15:31

As you got into the professional game, was there anything that you you just sort of said, you know what, there's an aspect of my game I didn't realize how much I need to step up to compete at this level.

Hale Irwin 15:46

Well, the I always felt and this kind of goes back to my athletic career, uh Mike, is that no one was ever going to out try me. They could beat me, but they weren't going to out they weren't gonna try harder than I did. I would never give up, ever. That doesn't mean that I won, but I wasn't going to give up. And that meant I couldn't give up on myself either. But I knew I had a lot of things to learn. And and I use this example quite often. I think it was my perhaps my second full year, second year on the tour. We were in Toronto at the Canadian Open. And I had had a bad this is when I was a Monday qualifier, so I really needed to make those cuts to move on to the next uh uh event. And I was walking back to my car and I went by the practice tee, and I just stopped. And went out there and I and I I was looking at the first player, and I I don't know who it was, and then I moved to the second player, and I and I went and I was watching uh let's say Bruce was there or George Archer or Arnie, it doesn't matter. And I just built this composite of, hey, I like that grip, I like that takeaway, I like that stance, I like that posture. I I just built this composite in my head of of a good golf game that that I could use. Yeah. Not not that I was ever gonna get my hands high. I wouldn't have the flying elbow like Jack, but things about it you have to understand that he's the greatest player ever played, and he had to do something well, so look for it.

Bruce Devlin 17:14

Yeah, find it.

Hale Irwin 17:15

And anyway, it came out the next day and I played really well, and that was the best thing I think I've ever done is that I I walked away from it with a very positive idea of what I wanted to do. Now, did I incorporate it exactly? No. But the the influences I think really helped me, and as I got more experience and more confidence and more success, it kind of built upon itself.

Mike Gonzalez 17:37

On this idea you mentioned about watching other players, I'll ask each of you uh was there a player or more than one player that uh as you got going professionally, you would stop, take notice, and watch them hit balls. They were that good.

Hale Irwin 17:53

Go ahead, Bruce.

Bruce Devlin 17:57

I'm blaming Bank here waiting for you. Uh well, I I like to watch him uh uh because he was such a great player. Uh I you know, I go back to my early days, obviously, and and Peter Thompson probably probably uh I I looked at him, I never spent a lot of time with him, and and I never ever got a lesson from him, but a little bit like what Hale said, you know, you could see s you could see the fluency in that man's swing. He he never hit the ball very crooked, so that was you know that was nice if you can sort of play this game without hitting it off the off the fairway. Right. Uh and uh a man at his time was also uh a very good player. Swung it differently was Norman von Neider, who was a guy that actually I spent I spent my uh early years as a professional with him. He's the one that helped me the most, but I I used to love to watch Peter Thompson swing the golf club.

Hale Irwin 19:01

Well, Peter he's one of the icons, I think, of yesteryear. Uh there'd be no doubt that you could learn an awful lot from Peter. And whereas I didn't get to be around him as you did, Bruce. Uh I did see him and uh primarily at the Open Championship. And but uh I I agree completely. But for me, uh I looked at attitude as much as I looked at anything else. Because I think uh being in the other sports, there were a lot of good athletes, and it seemed to me like every time I I was around a guy with a great attitude, he became at least a good, if not great, player at his position. So is attitude. How how do you believe in yourself? How did you motivate yourself to do that? And so I always like to look at the players, uh their attitude, how they went about doing what they do. Um and then I would look at their their physical characteristics. What was it that made them good? Um I enjoyed watching you, Bruce. I I really did. And I'll tell you why, because I like the tempo you had and I like the way you set the club. You didn't have the long swing, but you set the club right there. But you know what I'm talking about. You you set it, and the golf swing, in my opinion, starts the moment you set at the top. That's the golf swing from there down. How you get it back doesn't matter. I liked watching George Newton. You know, George just easy going, smooth uh George Archer for a guy as big as George was. I love watching how he got to the ball, how he used his legs to put to power himself through it at 6'6. What's he do to make himself so good? And of course, you look at Arnie, I think Arnie's grip is geez, his Arnie's grip just went right on the club. Yeah. But I I think uh there are just so many of those players I just take that snapshot and remember that. And just a real quick thing on grips. I was at the Masters one year. I'd played the practice round by myself, it was coming off the 18th hole. I'll just go over and play the part three. I think it was on a Tuesday. And I got to the first hole to part three just as Gene Sarazen and Byron Nelson were getting there. And they asked if I'd like to join them. Would I like to join them? Yeah. Absolutely, I'd like to join them. Well, that that little nine holes, we went around an hour or whatever, was absolutely delightful because those guys really knew how to hold that club. And you could see when they had to play with that old equipment, those old whippy hickories or those whippy uh uh steel shafts and those heavy irons, how they played with that and how they used their hands. Wow. And I just I was sorry that that day ended. But it's things like that that just I tried to pick up on and put them back here in the memory bank if I didn't lose them in there and and try to accommodate my my own skills. With what I've seen. And it was such a positive influence. And that's kind of how I it all developed.

Mike Gonzalez 22:07

Before we jump into your professional career, I want to double back just for the benefit of our listeners who are listening to it this year or 50 years from now and want to know a little bit more about Hale Irwin. He was absolutely a star athlete in high school and college long before he was a star in golf. Quarterbacked his high school team in Boulder to a state championship, played baseball and golf. He was in the Colorado High School Athletic Hall of Fame at the University of Colorado. He was an Athletic Hall of Fame member, inducted in 2002. Football player, hell of a football player, two-time All-Big Eight defensive back and academic All-American debut. He won two Big Eight Golf Conference Championships, and as he mentioned, won the 1967 NCAA Division I individual championship. And by the way, I think that was the year after you played your first U.S. Open, wasn't it?

Hale Irwin 23:01

It was. I played in uh San Francisco Olympic Club in 1966 as an amateur. Did I learn there?

Mike Gonzalez 23:10

I was going to say because there was a few years before you then played your next one. That had to be a wonderful experience for you.

Hale Irwin 23:16

Oh, it was fantastic. Uh well, the the thing that I remember the most, and you get I just have these these little quick little snapshots of what I saw. Uh walking through the pro shop there at the first at Olympic Club and looking up the first T, Tony Lima. Tony Lee was right there on the T. Now I didn't get to play with Tony ever. Uh Bruce, you knew Tony, but I just I knew more of Tony. I think I met him, but I really didn't know Tony, and it's shortly there after he died in that plane crash. There was a guy that had one of those rhythmic swings that you uh and I I remember going out and thinking, this is the hardest course I've ever seen. Yeah, rough. Uh but you know, I knock on wood, I made the cut, uh, and I remember saying, Hey, I beat Chi Chi Rodriguez because Chi Chi didn't make the cut. I beat Chi Chi. But I got I just made it on the nose, and I played the next day, first out with Gene Borick, who is from the East Coast. Wonderful guy. And the USGA guys were on that T, uh, really kind of in our face, saying, Hey, you're the rabbits, we're gonna time you on every hole, we're gonna be there making sure you know, just scared the you know what out of me. I want to be late, man. I've never played a faster 18 holes in my life than I did that day. I I learned a lot about how to play tough golf courses that week.

Bruce Devlin 24:45

Uh that week, that week you would have loved to have had a played a practice round or two with me. You know why? You'd have got to play practice rounds with Mr. Ben Hogan.

Hale Irwin 24:57

Oh.

Bruce Devlin 24:58

Would you have loved that?

Hale Irwin 25:00

That would have been fantastic. I I I met Mr. Hogan one time and one time only. Uh, on the first T of Colonial one year. Um, I went up there and as he was sitting at a table and and I introduced myself. So Mr. Hogan, I'm Hale Irwin. And Sully said, I know who you are, and that was it.

Bruce Devlin 25:21

Sounds like him. He did too. He knew who you were. That was it. End of the conversation. Okay.

Mike Gonzalez 25:27

That's that's the open that's the U.S. Open where you and Gloria flew out with uh he and his wife, didn't you?

Bruce Devlin 25:32

And had dinner Yeah, we we we flew out with them and we stayed at the uh what used to be the Top of the Mark Hotel, which was a bit fancy for me in those days to stay at that hotel. Then we had dinner every night with the with the Hogan's and played every practice round with him. I mean, it was uh it was one of the great wonderful weeks uh in my life to have spent that much time and listened. I made a m I I guess I made a mistake, sort of. I said on uh the Monday night dinner, I said, Mr. Hogan, I know you probably don't like to talk about it, but what actually happened that afternoon when you left El Paso, you know, on your way back to Fort Worth and Monday night at dinner and Tuesday night at dinner before he finished the story of walking up the 18th hole at Marion. So it was uh, I mean, talk about a uh uh a 20-month history of what went on was uh so vivid, Hale. So vivid.

Hale Irwin 26:33

You know, speaking of Marion, and I I I had heard this, and maybe you can corroborate it or dispel it, that where they have the plaque there now, he hits his one iron to that green. And either that day or shortly thereafter, someone took his one iron. And as the story comes to me, later on, there's this person that's going to a pawn shop and they see this golf club, and the center of the club is worn out. And they did a little research, and it was Ben Hogan's one iron.

Bruce Devlin 27:08

Have you heard that story? I have heard that story. I would have to believe that if you've heard it from your source and I've heard it from mine, uh I did not hear that from Mr. Hogan at all, but I I've heard that story, LS. So I I think I think you're right about it.

Hale Irwin 27:25

Well, you you look, you go back there now, and where they where they use the T's and where you hit a one iron from, and then where they put the T's now and where they hit eight irons from. It's uh mind boggling. Mind boggling. That's why we the the game of golf in yesteryear and the game of golf now, I don't know what the similarities are, except maybe in the clubs the way they look and the balls the way they look, that's it. The golf swings aren't the same. Nothing is the same.

Bruce Devlin 27:55

No, no. And is it is it in fact has it made the game better?

Hale Irwin 28:05

I guess my hesitation gives you an answer, doesn't it? Well, I think the rules I think the rules of the game, Bruce and Mike, have uh have lagged in keeping up with the traditions of our game. I've always felt like part of our game is the controlling of nerves. And any kind of anchoring, any kind of something that uh allows that to be uh dampened uh takes away from what the players of yesteryear did so well. They they learned how to play the game and control themselves at the same time. Um the distance the ball goes now, and there are many players that have been harping upon this for years and years and years, and the governing bodies just don't want to hear it. Um and I I I don't see at the club level that it's really making that big a difference in the club level, in today's ball versus the ball of 30 years ago. I just don't see it. But uh anyway, I could get off on that pretty quickly, so I'll try to step off the bandwagon right now. That's when Macadie lost signs.

Mike Gonzalez 29:16

Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe, spread the word, and tell your friends until we teat up again for the good of the game, so long everybody smacked down the fairway.

Intro Music 29:39

And it's time to just let it just smack off line. My head is as long as you're still in the stage, okay.